Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Acts 26-14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
The scripture above shows us that Gods power can overwhelm a person, so that they fall to the ground.
However, just because you are knocked down, does not always mean that God will do something to or for you.
Hello Tam,
Let me begin by stating that I am thankful for time and effort that you put into the above post. Likewise, I appreciate the sincerity and care that you have taken to allow the Scripture to speak for itself.
I fully agree with you in that God can overpower a person resulting in that person falling to the ground. Clearly, Paul fell to the ground in this encounter with the exalted Christ. However, this fact does not demonstrate that people are being SITS in Charismatic churches today. Why do I say such a thing? Well, it is because what you all have described at SITS does not line up with, or correspond to what we see taking place in the above quoted Scripture. As has already been pointed out:
1. When this event occurred Saul was an unsaved persecutor of Christ and His church (Acts 9:1-3; 22:4-5; and 26:9-12). Yet, you all say that being SITS is a “blessing from the Lord.” So if Saul’s experience in these texts is SITS (as you all describe it) it means that the Lord blesses unsaved non-Christians.
2. When this event occurred it was accompanied by the flash of a great light around Saul and those who were with him (Acts 9:3; 22:13, and 26:13). Does this happen when people are being SITS in Charismatic churches today?
3. When this event occurred Saul and those with him all fell to the ground (Acts 9:4; 22:7; and 26:14). When an individual is SITS in Charismatic churches today does the entire congregation (or at least all those in the immediate vicinity of that person) fall?
4. When this event occurred to Saul he was struck blind and this blindness lasted for three days until the Lord sent a Christian believer to lay hands on him (Acts 9:4-19). Does anything like this happen with people being SITS in Charismatic churches today?
5. When this event occurred Saul remained conscious, heard the audible voice of the Lord, and carried on a conversation with the Lord (Acts 9:4-7). Does this happen to people being SITS in Charismatic churches today?
6. When this event occurred Saul and all those with him heard the audible voice of the Lord speaking in the Hebrew language (Acts 9:4; 22:7; and 26:14). However, while the others heard the voice they did not understand what was being said (Acts 22:9). Does this happen when people are being SITS in Charismatic churches today?
7. When this event occurred Saul received divine progressive revelation from the Lord for inclusion in the Bible (Acts 9:1-19; and 26:12-18). Does this happen to people being SITS in Charismatic churches today? No, it can not happen because the canon of Scripture is closed and God is no longer progressively revealing Himself to us in this manner.
8. When this event occurred the text does not indicate that anyone (human) touched or blew upon Saul. However, in general one of these two methods of transferring the power of God is required for SITS to occur in Charismatic churches today (at least according to the vast majority of the SITS experiences you all have referenced in this debate).
9. When this event occurred it was in the manifest presence of the exalted Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 9:5; and 22:8). Please don’t misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not somehow rejecting Trinitarian Monotheism here (as Ray has attempted to argue I am doing). However, please recognize that the three persons of the Triune Godhead are one and that each person of the Trinity is capable of manifesting His presence without one or two of the other persons manifesting and/or revealing His presence at the same time. Thus, the text does not indicate that this event occurred based on the presence of the Holy Spirit (yet as traditional Trinitarian Monotheists we can still understand that where one person of the Godhead is so are all three, but this does not necessitate that each person of the Trinity makes His presence known at all times).
Even if we were to completely dismiss my last point above for the sake of not causing any confusion over the doctrine to the Trinity you all would still be faced with eight other significant differences between your personal experiences of being SITS in Charismatic churches today and that of the events recorded in the Scripture that you are attempting to use as a proof text.
Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Now we will go to a different scripture.
John 18-6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
They were unsaved sinners, so even though they fell under the power of God, nothing else happened to them at all. They simply got up, arrested him and took him away.
John 18-12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
13 And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.
Please look at the full context of these verses. You have skipped over the fact that when these men approached Jesus He asked them, “Whom do you seek?” (John 18:4). The men responded, “Jesus of Nazareth” (John 18:5). Jesus replied, “I am he.” Then we are told that after Jesus said “I am he” they drew back and fell to the ground (John 18:6). Why did this happen? In addition to your attempt to answer this question with a SITS explanation there are at least two other options.
1. They drew back and fell to the ground because for a split second after Jesus had identified Himself by the very name of God, the Great I AM (Ex. 3:14), He allowed them to see a brief glimpse of His full deity and that reality caused them to fall back in fear. Note that the text does not indicate that these men were ever unconscious as in modern day Charismatic SITS. In fact, Jesus continues to address them asking them again, “Whom do you seek?” and they immediately respond to His second inquiry with “Jesus of Nazareth” (John 18:7).
2. Or, because Jesus had just spoken the very name of God, I AM (YHVH in Hebrew), these loyal Temple Jews understood this to be blasphemy because Jesus had identified Himself as God and thereby taken the name of the LORD in vain in direct violation of Ex. 20:7. Therefore, they expected fire to fall from heaven in judgment, as with Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1-2) and Uzzah (1 Chor. 13:9-10) for disobeying the direct commands of God. Thus, they fell over themselves in their frantic attempt to get out of the way.
Since both of these options have strong biblical support from other texts of Scripture they are far more acceptable than jumping to a SITS explanation which can not be effectively demonstrated from the Scriptures without resorting to eisegesis. However, what we must admit is that the text of John 18 does not tell exactly why the men fell back, all we know for sure is that they did fall.
Originally posted by tamborine lady:
But now let us look at 2 Chronicles 5-11 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place: (for all the priests that were present were sanctified, and did not then wait by course:
12 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets
2 Chronicles 5-14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
Here, (in the scripture above) we see that men of God were overcome by the Glory. There were 120 of them. Did they all fall? We do not know. The scripture just says the priests "could not stand" to minister.
I agree that this is what the Scripture says. However, does the phrase “So that the priests could not stand to minister” necessitate that any of them actually fell to the ground, or is it at all possible that it could mean that they simply were unable to stay where they were and continue to perform their Temple duties? Either way, whether they actually fell down or simply could not stay and perform their duties, this text does not lend credibility to the modern idea of SITS as you all have described it happening in Charismatic churches. I say this because here again the circumstances behind this biblical event, the actual event, and the reason for it do not line up with or correspond to the events you all have described in your personal experiences of being SITS in Charismatic churches. This is particularly true where a touch (or blowing) is used to unleash and direct the SITS “power” upon someone.
Originally posted by tamborine lady:
So what have I shown with these scriptures? I have shown that the power/Glory of God can make sinners and saints alike fall to the floor (earth). Sometimes they get up unchanged. Sometimes, (in the case of Paul) there is a great change.
So I have not changed, added to nor taken away from scripture. I have simply shown that at various times in the bible, people fell.
I think what one of the problems is the phrase "slain in the Spirit" As I have said before, I prefer "fall under the power". But thats just me.
Working for Jesus,
Tam
I agree that you did not change, add to or take away from the Word when you quoted the texts. Likewise, I agree that all you have done is quote passage of Scripture that show that at various times in the Bible people fell. Yet, this is the extent of what you have been able to demonstrate. With respect to these same texts we have been able to further demonstrate that if one tries to apply a SITS interpretation to them numerous inconsistencies, contradictions, and other problems arise when we try to reconcile the biblical events with SITS experiences coming out of Charismatic churches today.
[ March 11, 2006, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]