Being Slain in the Spirit? Part Two

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Tam,


This is perhaps the best example as to men of God who recognized the mighty power of God the Holy Spirit. When I fell under the power of the Spirit no one touched me, blew on me, or prayed over me speaking in tongues. As I have been trying to tell these non-believers in this power of the Holy Ghost, that God does not always minister in the same way. Sometime people place their hand on another person to bless them and at other times they do not.

Hello Ray,

I well remember the story of your subjective personal experience. However, your story bears even less resemblence to the texts of Scripture that you attempt to use to justify it than any of the other experiences that have been related in this thread. Does it not bother you that your subjective experience bears no similarity (other than the fact the you fell over onto your back) to anything that we see taking place in the objective truth of God's Word?

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
We will seldom change the mind of a person who is caught in the web of incorrect Christian teaching. Only the Lord can change their minds, especially if they experience His overpowering blessing.

I have seen this over and over again. If a denomination teaches against this experience, their trainees, men or women studying for ministry, cannot believe it because this would be going against denominational rules, and these students and pastors in churches already do not want to leave their denominations. They stay with the denominational ship rather than being guided by the Word of God--the Bible.

It is not only over this issue but Presbyterians or Reformed Episcopalians will never or at least seldom dare to believe in a more Arminian theology because they are training them in Calvinism. They wrongly believe they are somehow keeping a kind of 'purity of Christian doctrine' and do not allow the men to see all sides of theology, nor are they allowed to preach it.

You have leveled yet another unsubstantiated and false charge against Southern Baptist seminary students and their professors. Furthermore, you have now falsely charged that we reject the truth of God's Word in favor of some undocumented denominational belief or creed. How dare you make such a blanket statement?! I love the the Lord and His Word and every doctrinal position that I hold comes directly from my own study of the Bible, not from a denominational leader, not from a professor, and certainly not from some supposed non-existant denominational creed.

You sir, need to re-examine your statements and either prove them with documented evidence, or withdraw them and apologize immediately. BB Administrative Council here we come.

[ March 11, 2006, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I also take offense at the blanket statement that all baptists do not follow the Holy Spirit.

That Passage that was quoted says nothing of falling backwards, forwards, or even sideways.

It says that they could not stand to minister.

We make statements along the same line.

"I could not stand seeing the sorrow that person was going through'. Does that mean the speaker fell backwards because someone was grief stricken? God forbid!

'I cannot stand someone taking the Lord's name in vain' Do I fall backward when someone does? NO!

They could not stand to minister.... They could not preach, but only bask in the Glory of the Lord!

 

[tamborine lady]

Bible Boy said:

Please look at the full context of these verses. You have skipped over the fact that when these men approached Jesus He asked them, “Whom do you seek?” (John 18:4). The men responded, “Jesus of Nazareth” (John 18:5). Jesus replied, “I am he.” Then we are told that after Jesus said “I am he” they drew back and fell to the ground (John 18:6). Why did this happen? In addition to your attempt to answer this question with a SITS explanation there are at least two other options.

1. They drew back and fell to the ground because for a split second after Jesus had identified Himself by the very name of God, the Great I AM (Ex. 3:14), He allowed them to see a brief glimpse of His full deity and that reality caused them to fall back in fear. Note that the text does not indicate that these men were ever unconscious as in modern day Charismatic SITS. In fact, Jesus continues to address them asking them again, “Whom do you seek?” and they immediately respond to His second inquiry with “Jesus of Nazareth” (John 18:7).
2. Or, because Jesus had just spoken the very name of God, I AM (YHVH in Hebrew), these loyal Temple Jews understood this to be blasphemy because Jesus had identified Himself as God and thereby taken the name of the LORD in vain in direct violation of Ex. 20:7. Therefore, they expected fire to fall from heaven in judgment, as with Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1-2) and Uzzah (1 Chor. 13:9-10) for disobeying the direct commands of God. Thus, they fell over themselves in their frantic attempt to get out of the way.

************************************
Tam says:

We have discussed this topic so much that we all know Jesus said"I Am He". Since I was going for the falling this time, I did not mention it. But I guess I need to make it very clear for some.

This is why they fell. The Power of jesus just saying the words made them stumble and fall. At least that is the way I see it.

As for points 1 and 2, with all due respect, the bible does not say those are the reasons. So we cannot just assume that either one of them are right.

To be fair, the bible does not say they fell back because of the power of God either. So even my answer is what I see and not what the bible says.

Therefore, if it is not explained in the bible, shouldn't we go and pray, and ask the Holy Spirit for interpretation?

Peace,

Tam

 

[Pete]

By Ray:
This is perhaps the best example as to men of God who recognized the mighty power of God the Holy Spirit. When I fell under the power of the Spirit no one touched me, blew on me, or prayed over me speaking in tongues. As I have been trying to tell these non-believers in this power of the Holy Ghost, that God does not always minister in the same way. Sometime people place their hand on another person to bless them and at other times they do not.

Well now that's different, why didn't you just tell us to start off with that you were at the Temple when the Ark of the Covenant came in...Has God also spoken to you from a burning bush? Or parted seas for you to walk through? Boy, it really adds new meaning to Habakkuk's prayer "LORD , I have heard of your fame; I stand in awe of your deeds, O LORD. Renew them in our day...." Hab 3:2

Oh that's right, "God does not always minister in the same way..."

Ray, you seem to be on the border of performing Orwell's Doublethink with the Bible now. First claiming you fell like Paul, John, the priests in the temple...then when the specific circumstances of the Biblical events are studied and they don't measure up to your experience it's quickly back to the cop-out war-cry of "God does not always minister in the same way..."

As Bible-boy pointed out in his most recent post:

By B-b:
However, your story bears even less resemblence to the texts of Scripture that you attempt to use to justify it than any of the other experiences that have been related in this thread. Does it not bother you that your subjective experience bears no similarity (other than the fact the you fell over onto your back) to anything that we see taking place in the objective truth of God's Word?

By Ray:
We will seldom change the mind of a person who is caught in the web of incorrect Christian teaching.

I'm trying my best to help you out of that web Ray

Only the Lord can change their minds, especially if they experience His overpowering blessing.

There we go again with this "overpowering blessing" having the final authority instead of what the Word of God actually says mate. Based on your continual eisegesis gymnastics forgive me for doubting the source of the "blessing"....

I have seen this over and over again. If a denomination teaches against this experience, their trainees, men or women studying for ministry, cannot believe it because this would be going against denominational rules, and these students and pastors in churches already do not want to leave their denominations. They stay with the denominational ship rather than being guided by the Word of God--the Bible.

Come on Ray, get real, this is Baptists you are talking to now. Here in Australia you can go (I sure won't ) to buildings with "Baptist" on the front door that have the false teaching of the falling down thing just as heavily practiced as in the alphabet soup (AOG/CLC/etc) Churches. I understand the problem in U.S. with whole denominations calling themselves "Baptist" but are closer to AOG...

John should have copyrighted the name...Or we should take lessons of the Romans...Or both...

Anyway, notice, if the priests in the Temple could not stand there, they would have fallen to the floor. IF I recall correctly, in another place it says that the power of God was so great there that they could not even enter the Temple.

Cool, you've noticed the priests and the Temple. Now don't miss the Ark of the Covenant coming in the door, the significance of the event being the opening of the Temple in Jerusalem, the physical manifestation of the glory of the LORD...all these minor details that add up to it not being like SITS


Oh, and passage you are thinking of is down a couple of chapters>>> 2 Chronicles 7:1-3 NIV Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. (2) The priests could not enter the temple of the LORD because the glory of the LORD filled it. (3) When all the Israelites saw the fire coming down and the glory of the LORD above the temple, they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshiped and gave thanks to the LORD , saying, "He is good; his love endures forever."

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Bible Boy said:

Then we are told that after Jesus said “I am he” they drew back and fell to the ground (John 18:6).[/b] Why did this happen? In addition to your attempt to answer this question with a SITS explanation there are at least two other options.

1. They drew back and fell to the ground because for a split second after Jesus had identified Himself by the very name of God, the Great I AM (Ex. 3:14), He allowed them to see a brief glimpse of His full deity and that reality caused them to fall back in fear. Note that the text does not indicate that these men were ever unconscious as in modern day Charismatic SITS. In fact, Jesus continues to address them asking them again, “Whom do you seek?” and they immediately respond to His second inquiry with “Jesus of Nazareth” (John 18:7).
2. Or, because Jesus had just spoken the very name of God, I AM (YHVH in Hebrew), these loyal Temple Jews understood this to be blasphemy because Jesus had identified Himself as God and thereby taken the name of the LORD in vain in direct violation of Ex. 20:7. Therefore, they expected fire to fall from heaven in judgment, as with Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1-2) and Uzzah (1 Chor. 13:9-10) for disobeying the direct commands of God. Thus, they fell over themselves in their frantic attempt to get out of the way.

************************************
Tam says:

We have discussed this topic so much that we all know Jesus said"I Am He". Since I was going for the falling this time, I did not mention it. But I guess I need to make it very clear for some.

This is why they fell. The Power of jesus just saying the words made them stumble and fall. At least that is the way I see it.

As for points 1 and 2, with all due respect, the bible does not say those are the reasons. So we cannot just assume that either one of them are right.

To be fair, the bible does not say they fell back because of the power of God either. So even my answer is what I see and not what the bible says.

Therefore, if it is not explained in the bible, shouldn't we go and pray, and ask the Holy Spirit for interpretation?

Peace,

Tam

I had always leaned more towards Bible-boy's first option, even posting on second page of this thread in answer to music4Him John 18:6 just WHO was Jesus speaking to here? The 12? Peter, James and John? No, the soldiers coming to arrest Him. The voice of the One who could have called on His Father for more than 12 legions of angels declared to these men just who they were coming to arrest. When the men recovered they were so blessed by the experience they didn't arrest Jesus...hmmmmmm? ......When Jesus declared who He was to these men...well...we are not told, but I imagine them feeling like they were only a few feet away from finding out how dreadful a thing it is to fall into the hands of the living God.

However looking at it again now with Bible-boy's post I have to wonder. If this was the Lord Jesus Christ displaying even a brief glimpse of His Deity to these men, would have they still arrested Him? I guess there could be pros and cons on each side of that one, like God's revelation to Peter and his subsequent declaration of Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the Living God vs Pharaoh's rejection of God's commands even after he saw God's power displayed...Off topic I know, sorry, just thinking out loud I guess

Anyways...Tam, whichever way the verse is taken I can't see it being able to be used as a proof-text for SITS. Ray continually describes SITS as a blessing from God, in this verse however it is a group of men coming to arrest Jesus. So whether or not they fell back because Christ directly revealed His Deity and His authority to them, or they thought He was blaspheming by saying "I am" and were dodging lightning bolts, or surprise that He was admitting He was who this small army was looking for, or just plain old fashioned simple clumsiness...Whichever angle is taken it is still the same group of men coming to arrest Christ. I doubt these men would have been high on God's bless list at that moment...

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pete,

I did not know that in Australia that Baptists were involved in some of the apostolic experiences that the N.T. points out.

As to Bible-boy getting all defensive I did not use the term Southern Baptist Seminaries or any other seminary. I did and still affirm that denominations have their own well furrowed doctrines that they expect to be preached within their churches. This is a fact which could be good or bad depending on what their agenda is all about.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Bible Boy said:

Please look at the full context of these verses. You have skipped over the fact that when these men approached Jesus He asked them, “Whom do you seek?” (John 18:4). The men responded, “Jesus of Nazareth” (John 18:5). Jesus replied, “I am he.” Then we are told that after Jesus said “I am he” they drew back and fell to the ground (John 18:6). Why did this happen? In addition to your attempt to answer this question with a SITS explanation there are at least two other options.

1. They drew back and fell to the ground because for a split second after Jesus had identified Himself by the very name of God, the Great I AM (Ex. 3:14), He allowed them to see a brief glimpse of His full deity and that reality caused them to fall back in fear. Note that the text does not indicate that these men were ever unconscious as in modern day Charismatic SITS. In fact, Jesus continues to address them asking them again, “Whom do you seek?” and they immediately respond to His second inquiry with “Jesus of Nazareth” (John 18:7).
2. Or, because Jesus had just spoken the very name of God, I AM (YHVH in Hebrew), these loyal Temple Jews understood this to be blasphemy because Jesus had identified Himself as God and thereby taken the name of the LORD in vain in direct violation of Ex. 20:7. Therefore, they expected fire to fall from heaven in judgment, as with Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1-2) and Uzzah (1 Chor. 13:9-10) for disobeying the direct commands of God. Thus, they fell over themselves in their frantic attempt to get out of the way.

************************************
Tam says:

We have discussed this topic so much that we all know Jesus said"I Am He". Since I was going for the falling this time, I did not mention it. But I guess I need to make it very clear for some.

This is why they fell. The Power of jesus just saying the words made them stumble and fall. At least that is the way I see it.

As for points 1 and 2, with all due respect, the bible does not say those are the reasons. So we cannot just assume that either one of them are right.

To be fair, the bible does not say they fell back because of the power of God either. So even my answer is what I see and not what the bible says.

Therefore, if it is not explained in the bible, shouldn't we go and pray, and ask the Holy Spirit for interpretation?

Peace,

Tam

Hello Tam,

Again I'll ask you try and avoid cutting parts of my posts out of context, ignoring the complete thought that is being expressed, and commenting on only a portion of my text. Following my second point that you quoted above I had an additional paragraph that said:

Since both of these options have strong biblical support from other texts of Scripture they are far more acceptable than jumping to a SITS explanation which can not be effectively demonstrated from the Scriptures without resorting to eisegesis. However, what we must admit is that the text of John 18 does not tell exactly why the men fell back, all we know for sure is that they did fall.

This is basically the same conclusion you have reached in the above quoted material. Any way we look at it the bottom line is that these men fell back away from Christ. No matter which view you take it all boils down to the power of God. They fell either as a direct response to the power of God revealed in the deity of Christ, or because of the power of God expressed in the speaking of His name (YHVH), or because of the fear of the power of God falling in judgment for taking His name in vain.

In each of the possibilities the commonality is the power of God. Therefore, we are in complete agreement here. Yet, the circumstances behind this biblical event, the event itself, and the reason for its occurrence remain vastly different from what you all have described regarding someone being SITS in Charismatic churches today. Thus, it does not serve as a good and acceptable proof text for SITS.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pete,

You said, '. . . I doubt these men would have been high on God's bless list at that moment...'

I would have thought you would have known that this was a judgment against these men plus they must then have realized they were dealing with a most powerful Being, meaning Jesus. These men were probably unsaved men.

.

 

[DHK]

Ray,
You continue to attack "denominational seminaries."
Please answer. Where did you get your Th.d?
Off the internet perhaps?
Where did it come from Ray?

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

From Canada in your home town.

Ray

 

[Pete]

OOPS...I haven't looked at this thread for month and a half. I should have stopped by, would have loved to have seen this earlier

By Ray:
Pete,

You said, '. . . I doubt these men would have been high on God's bless list at that moment...'

I would have thought you would have known that this was a judgment against these men plus they must then have realized they were dealing with a most powerful Being, meaning Jesus. These men were probably unsaved men.

Ray, that's what I've been saying about these men all along

The various possible causes of them falling back aside, the fact that these men were coming to arrest Christ strongly suggests they were not Christian. Using what happened to them as an example of God blessing His people is just being dishonest with what the text actually says.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Pete,

You have a point...

Any time you seek the experience instead of the experience giver, Jesus, you are seeking amiss...

I, have a problem with the rigid fall over backwards version... Too, dignified, too easy...

I've also been in a few services where people have just collapsed in a heap...

I am more inclined to 'believe' that experience than the former one.

The question is this...

If a person *really* has an intimate enough experience with Jesus to effectively short-circuit their motor neuron system...

I would expect them to be changed, radically changed, when they do finally get back up.

It kinda reminds me of a story Barry McGuire shares on the "To The bride" album where when he worked on a fishing boat he played with the Dolphins by knotting a towel and thwacking them on the head...

The first dolphin ran off as soon as it got hit and Barry was disappointed that he had scared it away.

But, shortly a whole bunch of them came back and it was a free for all with the dolhpins vying for position to interact with the human...

Like they were saying, "hit me, hit me"...

Maybe some of my Pentecostal Peers are just like Dolphins to God?

How disappointing it must be to play the game and not really get hit...

Mike Sr.

 

[Pete]

Mike, re: I would expect them to be changed, radically changed, when they do finally get back up.

Dead right mate.

Our family were good mates with a cop who used to live over the road from us. He worked in town on the streets on Friday and Saturday night and also went to a charismatic Church in there. My parents got it directly from him that he when he was working he would see the same kids falling down drunk that were falling in Church on the Sundays. Week in, week out.

Another mate visited a charismatic Church in town (not sure if same Church or not), and his report was that all the young people were claiming to be so "spirit-filled" inside, and not long after outside the building they were swearing like wharfies (I think that's "longshoremen" in American).

Then there is the 5 or 6 years or so my parents and self saw of AOG/CLC/ETC Churches....To quote Springsteen "...seen enough, don't wanna see any more..."

I just wish I could go near one example of the "slain" practice again though...I'ld like the Lord to send me back in time to the night I took a catch. It was after the service and all the slainiacs (just invented another new word, © me ) were out the front doing their thing. For some reason I was walking past at the time and there was no one behind one lady so I figures "why not". I stood behind her and before she fell back she turned to make sure someone was there...If I could go back there now I'ld wait until "God knocked her down" and just step aside to watch Him handle the landing.....while wishing her luck as I waved her goodbye...

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Can it be said that,

Our Youth are the only true indicator of our true Spiritual Condition...

Yes, there will be rebels...

But, the majority *won't* be rebels...

I've heard it said that if you think PK's (preachers kids) are bad... Wait for the MK's (missionaries kids) to show up...

My heart aches for our youth...

I was so blessed to be a young man in the midst of a dedicated youth group. Kids *really* sold out to Jesus 24/7...

Why? Aren't we engendering such devotion today?

But, I digress...

Mike Sr.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
[SLIGHT TANGENT] Most of the people I've seen being 'slain in the Spirit' have been pushed over in some form or another eg: preacher shouts "Pray-EE-ze JEEZ-us" with one hand on forehead of prayee and the other behind prayee's back, whilst simultanously giving a big shove with the flats of both hands so that the 'victim' flips backwards onto the floor.

Why is this?

[/TANGENT]

Thats funny, Matt

"Pray-EE-ze JEEZ-us" and the "victim" part too

 

[Claudia_T]

People need to realize the Bible warns in the last days there would be many false miracles to deceive.

The thing is though, you know, Satan works in a very snidley way... he will do all these fake healings but then you know what? Satan can also do REAL healings... and when he does then people are going to assume it must be the real thing..

Remember Satan brought upon Job the sickness of the boils... and you know what? all Satan has to do is to then REMOVE his power from someone he made sick and it will appear they are healed.

and they actually WILL BE. So I believe Satan well knows what he is doing with all these obviously phony healings...this is lulling people along into thinking all healings are fake.
Then when Satan begins to do the real healings people are going to really fall for it.

Dont forget there was the magicians snake and then Moses snake...

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

I dont know why I said the devil works in a "snidely" way...

I was thinking of Snidley Whiplash LOL!

 

[Claudia_T]

Revelation 13:

11: And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12: And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

[Claudia_T]

I just wanted to add too that in the future, Satan will have his false teachers do healing miracles so that you will believe their doctrines are from God.


1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Claudia,

You are right that counterfeits *will* be 'in vogue'...

But, only the Genuine is worth counterfeiting...

And, all Manifestations will not be Counterfeit...

Some, perhaps many (judging by the televanglists), will be fake...

But, not all...

And, you forgot one important passage: (At least in your last four posts

)

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"Not everyone" that means some *will* be genuine...

Mike Sr.