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Being slain in the Spirit?
- Thread starter Bible-boy
- Start date
Of course, every time God has divinely interceded into the normal course of human events it has been something new to us (but not new to Him). However, the point is that because God never changes what we see Him doing throughout Scripture we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and for all eternity. </font>[/QUOTE]Why are you contradicting yourself? In your previous post it appears to me that your trying to say He won't do it anymore because of the closed cannon? Then here in this post it appears your saying that He can continue doing what He did since the beginning?
I have not read all the posts in this thread - but it certainly does look interesting.
StandingfirminChrist - great observation about the "catchers!"
Here are a couple more observations (I've been in a meeting where SITP was practiced - over 30 years ago - and seen others on TV)
1. Only women in slacks are slain-in-the-spirit, it's good to know that the "Spirit" has a sense of modesty.
2. Some "preachers" hit the one to be slain-in-the-spirit so hard - I think they are rendered unconscious.
3. One "preacher" says - as he hits the recipient in the forehead - "Take all you need!" (Good thing he doesn't hit me - as I would immeadiately head for the offering plate - to really take 'all I need!')
I believe that some adherents really believe in SITP - I think it's a gimic!
StandingfirminChrist - great observation about the "catchers!"
Here are a couple more observations (I've been in a meeting where SITP was practiced - over 30 years ago - and seen others on TV)
1. Only women in slacks are slain-in-the-spirit, it's good to know that the "Spirit" has a sense of modesty.
2. Some "preachers" hit the one to be slain-in-the-spirit so hard - I think they are rendered unconscious.
3. One "preacher" says - as he hits the recipient in the forehead - "Take all you need!" (Good thing he doesn't hit me - as I would immeadiately head for the offering plate - to really take 'all I need!')
I believe that some adherents really believe in SITP - I think it's a gimic!
Ray Berrian
New Member
Bible-boy,
You said, 'Okay Ray...
The dreams or visions that you had simply confirmed what God had already revealed in His Word regarding a literal hell and the Devil. However, according to your story the dreams were not for the purpose of God's progressive revelation of Himself to His creation, or for the progressive revelation of His Word (the primary purposes for which He spoke to the OT Prophets and the NT Apostles).
Remember, when I am talking about God speaking in His audible voice or by Divine visions I am talking about God's progressive revelation of Himself and His Word. We have already agreed that God is no longer progressively revealing Himself or His Word. He has already finished doing so through the Bible (complete closed canon) and in the person of Jesus Christ.
Therefore, when a Christian has such a dream it must line up with the already revealed teachings of Scripture. If it does not do so we must reject the dream (and its interpretation) as invalid and false.'
You said, 'Okay Ray...
The dreams or visions that you had simply confirmed what God had already revealed in His Word regarding a literal hell and the Devil. However, according to your story the dreams were not for the purpose of God's progressive revelation of Himself to His creation, or for the progressive revelation of His Word (the primary purposes for which He spoke to the OT Prophets and the NT Apostles).
Remember, when I am talking about God speaking in His audible voice or by Divine visions I am talking about God's progressive revelation of Himself and His Word. We have already agreed that God is no longer progressively revealing Himself or His Word. He has already finished doing so through the Bible (complete closed canon) and in the person of Jesus Christ.
Therefore, when a Christian has such a dream it must line up with the already revealed teachings of Scripture. If it does not do so we must reject the dream (and its interpretation) as invalid and false.'
.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Dan Todd,
You said, '
1. Only women in slacks are slain-in-the-spirit, it's good to know that the "Spirit" has a sense of modesty.
2. Some "preachers" hit the one to be slain-in-the-spirit so hard - I think they are rendered unconscious.'
You said, '
1. Only women in slacks are slain-in-the-spirit, it's good to know that the "Spirit" has a sense of modesty.
2. Some "preachers" hit the one to be slain-in-the-spirit so hard - I think they are rendered unconscious.'
.
tamborine lady
Active Member
Bible Boy,
From what I can tell from what you have said so far, you seem to be saying that the only difference between us and the people who lived in the 400 dark years between Malichi and Matthew is that we have the Bible and they didn't.
That's what it sounds like you are saying. Is that correct?
All we have is the Bible?
The Holy Spirit does not lead us, or help us in any way?
Is that what you are saying?
Peace,
Tam
...
So there I was, just about to sit down and read everything that has happened in this thread in the couple of pages since my last post, but then I realised it would probably just be more Scripture-twisting by people trying to support their experiences...I'll have a read through it later and see how close I was with that guess.
Anyway as promised in my previous post here is mum's experience (for all those who seem to consider experience to be the ultimate authority)
I had typed a bit about mum here but decided to delete it and go for the Readers Digest condensed version.
About 14 to 10 years or so we were going to "alphabet soup churches" (aog/clc/etc) for a while. Mum was "slain" a few times, maybe just this side of a dozen. Then one day she went to the doctor for a check-up and the doc performed Romberg's Test.
Mum now considers the whole thing rubbish, and when I mentioned to her after post the other day that I used the phrase "Scripture-twisters" here she fully agreed.
Come on, re-read that web-page quote above and then be honest, what is the general position of people before they are "slain"? Ever notice anyone with their feet together and eyes closed? In time I was at alphabet soup churches I don't think anyone stood any other way. Has the 'sign of Jonah' been traded in for 'Romberg's Sign.'?
As I mentioned last time this discussion was on the board I was in wrong place at wrong time and took a catch myself one night. Interestingly before God chose to knock this lady down she turned around to make sure someone was behind her to catch first...Looking back I should have just walked off and left the landing to God as well as the launching
So there I was, just about to sit down and read everything that has happened in this thread in the couple of pages since my last post, but then I realised it would probably just be more Scripture-twisting by people trying to support their experiences...I'll have a read through it later and see how close I was with that guess.
Anyway as promised in my previous post here is mum's experience (for all those who seem to consider experience to be the ultimate authority)
I had typed a bit about mum here but decided to delete it and go for the Readers Digest condensed version.
About 14 to 10 years or so we were going to "alphabet soup churches" (aog/clc/etc) for a while. Mum was "slain" a few times, maybe just this side of a dozen. Then one day she went to the doctor for a check-up and the doc performed Romberg's Test.
When mum opened her eyes the doctor was standing in the classic 'slainee catcher' position, which was a REAL eye-opener for her. She asked the doctor a bit about it and he said that most people can only stand a minute or two like that before falling over...sounds familiar huh?...
Mum now considers the whole thing rubbish, and when I mentioned to her after post the other day that I used the phrase "Scripture-twisters" here she fully agreed.
Come on, re-read that web-page quote above and then be honest, what is the general position of people before they are "slain"? Ever notice anyone with their feet together and eyes closed? In time I was at alphabet soup churches I don't think anyone stood any other way. Has the 'sign of Jonah' been traded in for 'Romberg's Sign.'?
As I mentioned last time this discussion was on the board I was in wrong place at wrong time and took a catch myself one night. Interestingly before God chose to knock this lady down she turned around to make sure someone was behind her to catch first...Looking back I should have just walked off and left the landing to God as well as the launching
Ray Berrian
New Member
Pete,
You make for an interesting read. So because of one woman's medical condition you are saying all Christians at the altar have "Romberg's problems. This being true that should all Email each other and maybe they can get their prescriptions discounted.
Not every Christian at the altar or at Rev. Hinn's services have their eyes closed.
I understand the real spiritual experience when the Lord takes you into this realm. I was in Bible College sitting Indian style when the Lord put me down. Other college age men were in the dorm to witness it. For me to deny this, for me, it would be like blaspheming the Spirit of God.
Not every person at Rev. Hinn's services are healed just because the Holy Spirit blesses them in this amazing way. Read: Acts 9:4; 10:10; 11:5; 22:7; 22:17; and Revelation 1:17.
Though I cannot find it now, there is a passage about Saul's conversion where it says that 'all who were with him fell to the ground.' Because they were in the Presence of God with the blinding light of His Being, the human body could not remain in a standing position.
Does this sound familiar? This does not mean that it is requisite for all Christians to have this experience when they get saved or even afterward. But to deny Divine realities that Christians experience is not spiritual wise to do. This is why Pastor Hinn is not a fake, though I do not follow his ministry or send money for his crusades.
You make for an interesting read. So because of one woman's medical condition you are saying all Christians at the altar have "Romberg's problems. This being true that should all Email each other and maybe they can get their prescriptions discounted.
Not every Christian at the altar or at Rev. Hinn's services have their eyes closed.
I understand the real spiritual experience when the Lord takes you into this realm. I was in Bible College sitting Indian style when the Lord put me down. Other college age men were in the dorm to witness it. For me to deny this, for me, it would be like blaspheming the Spirit of God.
Not every person at Rev. Hinn's services are healed just because the Holy Spirit blesses them in this amazing way. Read: Acts 9:4; 10:10; 11:5; 22:7; 22:17; and Revelation 1:17.
Though I cannot find it now, there is a passage about Saul's conversion where it says that 'all who were with him fell to the ground.' Because they were in the Presence of God with the blinding light of His Being, the human body could not remain in a standing position.
Does this sound familiar? This does not mean that it is requisite for all Christians to have this experience when they get saved or even afterward. But to deny Divine realities that Christians experience is not spiritual wise to do. This is why Pastor Hinn is not a fake, though I do not follow his ministry or send money for his crusades.
No I can't agree to all that cause God hasn't stopped talking. </font>[/QUOTE]No one here has said that God has stopped talking. He speaks to us through His Word. What we have agreed upon is that God is not currently speaking to us via His audible voice or via Divine visions for the purpose of continued progressive revelation of Himself or His Word. Don't read more into what we have said than we have actually said.
[ January 25, 2006, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
Of course, every time God has divinely interceded into the normal course of human events it has been something new to us (but not new to Him). However, the point is that because God never changes what we see Him doing throughout Scripture we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and for all eternity. </font>[/QUOTE]Why are you contradicting yourself? In your previous post it appears to me that your trying to say He won't do it anymore because of the closed cannon? Then here in this post it appears your saying that He can continue doing what He did since the beginning? </font>[/QUOTE]There is no contradiction. You need to go back and re-read the posts in question. What we (Ray and I) agreed upon is that God has stopped speaking via His audible voice and via Divine visions for the purpose of His continued progressive revelation of Himself and His Word. We had previously agreed that these were the primary reasons why God spoke (via His audible voice and by Divine visions). Then we agreed that when God finishes something He ceases to do that particular thing (e.g. creation Gen. 2:1-3; or the progressive revelation of His Word Rev. 22:18-19). Since God had finished the progressive revelation of Hid Word (which is the primary reason that He spoke to mankind) it is reasonable for us to expect Him to no longer speak via His audible voice or by Divine visions. He now speaks to us through His written Word, which is His fully revealed moral will for our lives.
[ January 21, 2006, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
No that is not what I am saying at all. Please don't read more into my posts than what I have actually written. We have both the OT and NT, they did not. All born again Christians have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide them in understanding God's Word, they did not. Likewise, the Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, on our behalf, when we do not how or what to pray (Rom. 8:26-27). No one in this thread is limiting the Holy Spirit or disregarding His presence in our lives.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Bible Boy,
From what I can tell from what you have said so far, you seem to be saying that the only difference between us and the people who lived in the 400 dark years between Malichi and Matthew is that we have the Bible and they didn't.
That's what it sounds like you are saying. Is that correct?
All we have is the Bible?
The Holy Spirit does not lead us, or help us in any way?
Is that what you are saying?
Peace,
Tam
Brian30755
New Member
standingfirminChrist, I attend a Pentecostal Church and have actually "fallen out" myself (again, I really dislike the term "slain in the spirit") on a couple of different occasions, but I agree with you 100%. And, I make the same challenge. Let 'em fall. Let 'em hit the ground. If it's really of God, they're not going to get hurt.
As best as I can tell we have agreed on the following principles:
1. God chose to speak to mankind (by means of His audible voice or Divine visions) for the following reasons:
A. The progressive revelation of Himself to His creation.
B. The progressive revelation of His Word (the Bible).
C. To guide and direct His people.
2. Then we also agreed that points A and C (above) are directly inter-connected to point B (above). Therefore, the progressive revelation of God's Word (the Bible) was the primary reason for God's choosing to speak to mankind.
3. There is no more progressive revelation of God’s Word because:
A. The canon of Scripture is complete/closed.
B. God has fully revealed Himself in His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ (when I say fully I mean as fully as He intends to do so).
C. Therefore, there is no more progressive revelation of His Word.
4. God never changes (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12). Therefore, what we see Him doing throughout the Scriptures is what we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and throughout eternity.
5. When God finishes something He ceases to continue doing that thing (based upon Gen. 2:1-3 and Rev. 22:18-19).
A. God has finished revealing Himself through His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ.
B. The canon of Scripture is complete and closed.
C. Therefore, God has ceased to speak to mankind (for the time being) by means of His audible voice and/or Divine visions (the way He spoke to the OT Prophets and some of the NT Apostles).
6. God's Word (the Bible) is our sole and final authority for all doctrinal positions.
Now on to the next question and hopefully agreement.
7. Since the Bible is our sole and final authority for all doctrinal positions (and objective truth), can we agree that if our subjective personal experiences do not line up with the clear objective truth of the Word we must reject our experiences (or understanding/interpretation of them) as error and embrace the objective truth of the Bible?
In other words, we can never accept our personal subjective experiences instead of the objective truth of the Bible if there is a contradiction between the two. Can we agree on this?
[ January 25, 2006, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
1. God chose to speak to mankind (by means of His audible voice or Divine visions) for the following reasons:
A. The progressive revelation of Himself to His creation.
B. The progressive revelation of His Word (the Bible).
C. To guide and direct His people.
2. Then we also agreed that points A and C (above) are directly inter-connected to point B (above). Therefore, the progressive revelation of God's Word (the Bible) was the primary reason for God's choosing to speak to mankind.
3. There is no more progressive revelation of God’s Word because:
A. The canon of Scripture is complete/closed.
B. God has fully revealed Himself in His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ (when I say fully I mean as fully as He intends to do so).
C. Therefore, there is no more progressive revelation of His Word.
4. God never changes (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12). Therefore, what we see Him doing throughout the Scriptures is what we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and throughout eternity.
5. When God finishes something He ceases to continue doing that thing (based upon Gen. 2:1-3 and Rev. 22:18-19).
A. God has finished revealing Himself through His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ.
B. The canon of Scripture is complete and closed.
C. Therefore, God has ceased to speak to mankind (for the time being) by means of His audible voice and/or Divine visions (the way He spoke to the OT Prophets and some of the NT Apostles).
6. God's Word (the Bible) is our sole and final authority for all doctrinal positions.
Now on to the next question and hopefully agreement.
7. Since the Bible is our sole and final authority for all doctrinal positions (and objective truth), can we agree that if our subjective personal experiences do not line up with the clear objective truth of the Word we must reject our experiences (or understanding/interpretation of them) as error and embrace the objective truth of the Bible?
In other words, we can never accept our personal subjective experiences instead of the objective truth of the Bible if there is a contradiction between the two. Can we agree on this?
[ January 25, 2006, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Being slain in the Spirit or being given the 'gift of tongues' is what it says, a gift from God. And since I Corinthians 12 & 14 validates special gifts to certain Christians [I Corinthians 12:11] we affirm that His Word--the Bible is the final authority on this subject.
I think it was StandingfirminChrist who said that he fell twice. If he is willing to answer this it would be helpful for some of you to understand. Did he have any human power or way to stop this experience in the Holy Spirit? Standingfirm.......don't feel like you must answer this question. But, I know when it happened to me I had nothing to do with it or trying to stop what God had put into motion in my life.
"Ray"
I think it was StandingfirminChrist who said that he fell twice. If he is willing to answer this it would be helpful for some of you to understand. Did he have any human power or way to stop this experience in the Holy Spirit? Standingfirm.......don't feel like you must answer this question. But, I know when it happened to me I had nothing to do with it or trying to stop what God had put into motion in my life.
"Ray"
Let's not get sidetracked talking about personal experiences or anecdotes. Let's stick with our logical flow of thought based upon the Scripture and follow the line of questions.
7. Since the Bible is our sole and final authority for all doctrinal positions (and objective truth), can we agree that if our subjective personal experiences do not line up with the clear objective truth of the Word we must reject our experiences (or understanding/interpretation of them) as error and embrace the objective truth of the Bible?
In other words, we can never accept our personal subjective experiences instead of the objective truth of the Bible if there is a contradiction between the two. Can we agree on this?
7. Since the Bible is our sole and final authority for all doctrinal positions (and objective truth), can we agree that if our subjective personal experiences do not line up with the clear objective truth of the Word we must reject our experiences (or understanding/interpretation of them) as error and embrace the objective truth of the Bible?
In other words, we can never accept our personal subjective experiences instead of the objective truth of the Bible if there is a contradiction between the two. Can we agree on this?
Diggin in da Word
New Member
I am with you on that, Bible boy. If our experiences do not line up with the scripture, we need to regroup.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Bible-boy,
You said, '. . . our logical flow . . .'
You said, '. . . our logical flow . . .'
A Scriptural experience must always be a result from a Scriptural foundation. If there is no Scriptural foundation to the experience, the experience is not of God. Too many Charismatics place the experience first, and then try to justify it by Scripture. They have it backwards. The Scripture must come first. The Scripture must be the foundation. If the experience of slain in the Spirit cannot be found in the given Scripture 1Cor.12 and 14) then it is not in the realm of the Holy Spirit as you suggest.
DHK
DHK
Ray Berrian
New Member
Bible-boy,
I agree with your number 7. The final authority is the Word of God in matters of faith and practice.
"Ray"
I agree with your number 7. The final authority is the Word of God in matters of faith and practice.
"Ray"