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Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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saturneptune said:
Understand I am very much in the sovereignty camp. To me, Paul Washer is poison to a local congregation. Each local church is autonomous and can make their own decision, but this church has made theirs.

Herald, I do not mean these comments to reflect how I feel about your posts in any way. Your posts are very enlightining.
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Brother, I would like you to explain to me what you mean by Washers being "POISON" to a local congregation?!? Is it that he snaps them out of their comfort zones & threating to a nice & comfortable congregation......because if so... No, let me stop here. Will wait for your explanation before jumping to conclusions! Thanks
 
T

Thomas Helwys

New Member
Mexdeaf said:
That wasn't an insult, it was an honest question. What you presented was a somewhat convoluted history lesson which had absolutely nothing to do with TULIP, Calvinism or soteriology.
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If it had been an honest question, you would have left the word "twaddle" out.
 
H

Herald

New Member
saturneptune said:
Understand I am very much in the sovereignty camp. To me, Paul Washer is poison to a local congregation. Each local church is autonomous and can make their own decision, but this church has made theirs.

Herald, I do not mean these comments to reflect how I feel about your posts in any way. Your posts are very enlightining.
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Saturn, no worries I respect your church's decision not to re-invite Paul Washer. I cannot comment on your experience, only my own. He hits hard. The reasoning he has given in interviews is that the he believes that much of the Western church is apostate. It does not live what it claims to believe. I cannot say I disagree with his assessment of the Western church. I know my own struggle with sin.

I doubt Washer would agree that his sort of preaching should dominate pulpits every Lord's Day. His purpose is to wake people up. It is the job of the elders to shepherd the flock. I think that is the real problem in Western churches -- a failure on the part of elders to shepherd the flock of God under their charge.
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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Thomas Helwys said:
Okay, I appreciate your attempt at serious and respectful discussion, and I'll be happy to reply.

There is in many quarters a tendency to separate the physical and spiritual because the physical is considered to be base, temporary, whereas the spirit is considered to be eternal. This devalues the body. The spirit is considered "higher" than the body. This is a main tenet of Gnosticism, and it reflects the dualism of Manichaesm which Augustine was influenced by. This lead to a distrust of the flesh and made sex dirty. This false dualism and wrong view of the flesh/body and sex is the foundation of the RCC views on Mary -- it is essential for these views that Mary must have remained a virgin all her life so she could remain free of sin, the cause of sin in this view being the flesh.

Puritanism was Reformed in theology; it had this same perverted view of the flesh and the body. Everyone who has studied Reformed theology knows this. It didn't lead to the extreme views of Mary that the RCC developed, but it manifested in different ways. It developed an ascetical code of behavior, for instance, condemning all kinds of harmless amusements and such.

As I said, Roman Catholic and Protestant theology, especially Reformed theology, are strongly influenced by Augustine, including those influences from his past that carried over into his post-conversion life.

As you and anyone can see, I have not confined this influence to Calvinism; I have stated repeatedly that a large segment of Western Christianity is Augustinian.

To me, I am not attacking by saying this. I am simply stating a historical and theological fact. Can anyone deny that in Western Christianity there is an unbiblical dualism of body and soul?

This dualism is just one area where Augustine's Manichaesm and Neoplatonism, and, by extension, Gnosticism, has had an unhealthy and unbiblical effect on much of Christendom.

People think that some liberal theologians' disbelief in the bodily resurrection is a result of liberalism itself. It is not; it is a result of this dualist devaluing of the body which makes it easy to discard this cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith.

Now I fully expect to be attacked for this, but I think my best recourse is to ignore such, if I can.
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Tom.....1st thank you for your commentary.

I must say that any commentary on this forum is always terse & combative and we all have had our time in the barrel so if you are looking for mellow conversation, I fear this is not the place to hang your hat.

As to gnostic's, whatever has happened in the past to Calvinists or Non-Cals is really past history......my own conclusion is they all have evolved to mature belief systems. However I would see some level of gnosticism in the focusing on the present church is offering the world which is other world / do it all so you will get into heaven theology. This manifests itself in typical conventional church with tired & lazy church service. That is why when I viewed a 'Paul Washer' You Tube this morning, I was stunned. But more importantly I see the actions of churches today as modern day gnosticism.

John 20:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Are we modern Christians afraid to touch the flesh of Christ because if we cannot do this, then we sure as shootin cannot touch the flesh of one another and understand what God is calling us as disciples to do. Thomas is our symbol of heady faith. So Christ asks Thomas to touch the wounds & finally believe. Unfortunately most of us are sleep walking through life & the church is reinforcing the zombie like behavior.

So how can we ever possibly expect the world to take us seriously... that to me is Gnosticism & we are all guilty of it.
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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Herald said:
Saturn, no worries I respect your church's decision not to re-invite Paul Washer. I cannot comment on your experience, only my own. He hits hard. The reasoning he has given in interviews is that the he believes that much of the Western church is apostate. It does not live what it claims to believe. I cannot say I disagree with his assessment of the Western church. I know my own struggle with sin.

I doubt Washer would agree that his sort of preaching should dominate pulpits every Lord's Day. His purpose is to wake people up. It is the job of the elders to shepherd the flock. I think that is the real problem in Western churches -- a failure on the part of elders to shepherd the flock of God under their charge.
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Tactful & well said Herald! :sleeping_2::laugh:
 
J

Jkdbuck76

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Pastor's and pulpit committees need to be up front and open and honest and transparent.

Maybe our politicians could learn from us.
 
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