Belief in the Absolute Sovereignty of God and the Absolute Depravity of Man

[agedman]

Except they view Jesus. death as providing real salvation to all sinners

Only the extreme pelagian theology and universalists.

There is an acceptance that the atonement (the blood shed for all sin) does not mean automatic salvation.

Personally, I consider that both John and Paul make that very clear.

You and I would agree that the ability to believe is given to only those God has given the Son. That such ability is not universal, and the unregenerate have no self generating ability.

Typical of the non-cal, there is this view that is also held by the cal. that the Scriptures are used by the Holy Spirit to generate belief (faith) which is then expressed as salvation.

What the huge cause of contention seems to resolve to human capability.

Does that person express (confess) salvation from an already changed (quickened, aware, Godly) heart which has been endowed with a new nature, or does that unregenerate heathen defiled heart of its volition grasp at some self generated “faith?”

For me, the Scriptures do not present humankind have any ability to generate anything of life, nor accept life, but those saved are as one pulled from the depth of the stormy sea completely dead. Such are given the breath of life, the heart throb of devotion, the pulse of the Holy Spirit, and the quickening of service. They confess out of acknowledgement and desire to bring true repentance in every aspect, conforming to, and expressing thankfulness at being taken from the sea.

 

[Yeshua1]

Only the extreme pelagian theology and universalists.

There is an acceptance that the atonement (the blood shed for all sin) does not mean automatic salvation.

Personally, I consider that both John and Paul make that very clear.

You and I would agree that the ability to believe is given to only those God has given the Son. That such ability is not universal, and the unregenerate have no self generating ability.

Typical of the non-cal, there is this view that is also held by the cal. that the Scriptures are used by the Holy Spirit to generate belief (faith) which is then expressed as salvation.

What the huge cause of contention seems to resolve to human capability.

Does that person express (confess) salvation from an already changed (quickened, aware, Godly) heart which has been endowed with a new nature, or does that unregenerate heathen defiled heart of its volition grasp at some self generated “faith?”

For me, the Scriptures do not present humankind have any ability to generate anything of life, nor accept life, but those saved are as one pulled from the depth of the stormy sea completely dead. Such are given the breath of life, the heart throb of devotion, the pulse of the Holy Spirit, and the quickening of service. They confess out of acknowledgement and desire to bring true repentance in every aspect, conforming to, and expressing thankfulness at being taken from the sea.

Unless the Holy Spirit brings them the capabilities to hear/believe/receive, all of stay lost in our sins.

 

[utilyan]

The NIV is the ONLY translation using “offered” that I can find.

It (imo) is a poor word choice on the part of that translation. And one reason that I use the NIV in very rare occasions.

This is not the only area that is a poor rendering, and shows a certain bias that I am uncomfortable in recommending to other believers.

The word “sótérios” is salvation.

In context, “The grace of God brings salvation to all men,” does not mean all are saved, but that none are saved because of merit, will, effort or some human attribute. Titus is affirming that it is God’s unmerited favour that brings salvation to the believers.

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.​

Grabbing a line of Scripture and making some application the context does not support does usually lead to error.

Again, the offer of salvation is not granted indiscriminately by God. That is unsupported by the Scriptures as I showed in the earlier post.

In support, here is a list of how others translate “sótérios” in 2 Titus. None use “offer” except one - the NIV.

New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.

English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

New American Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,

International Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all mankind,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
After all, God's saving kindness has appeared for the benefit of all people.

New American Standard 1977
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Jubilee Bible 2000
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

King James 2000 Bible
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American King James Version
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;

Darby Bible Translation
For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared,

English Revised Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Webster's Bible Translation
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Weymouth New Testament
For the grace of God has displayed itself with healing power to all mankind,

World English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Young's Literal Translation
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,

(List taken from: Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.)

LOL.
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

So you want scripture that brings up a notch. If God brings me salvation, Then obviously I got it.

Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL.
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

So you want scripture that brings up a notch. If God brings me salvation, Then obviously I got it.

Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot.

God brings forth a real offer to get saved, but only His own receive that, and rest keep on rejecting it!

 

[agedman]

LOL.
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

So you want scripture that brings up a notch. If God brings me salvation, Then obviously I got it.

Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot.

Not true.

One can bring a present to a gathering of people and it not be delivered to you.

It is written in John 1 that the light lighted every person.

Romans 1 declares God has given evidence in every person.

Such light and evidence was ignored, turned from, mocked, ridiculed, ...

So although the salvation was in the world, it was not presented to all the world.

John 1, those that did not turn from the light, TO THEM God gave the endowment of adopted.

The present (salvation) was brought to the party (the world), but not all in attendance (humankind) were given the present (salvation).

 

[agedman]

LOL.
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

So you want scripture that brings up a notch. If God brings me salvation, Then obviously I got it.

Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot.

Also, I forgot to mention that “bringing” is an English clarifier attached to salvation

The Titus verse could be translated! “God revealed (displayed) the unmerited favor of salvation to all men.


Salvation was seen by all being brought to the party, but delivered to only those chosen by the Father.

No one will stand befor God at that final judgment and claim excuse of being ignorant, for John 1 and Romans 1 show not a single person having an excuse.

 

[utilyan]

Also, I forgot to mention that “bringing” is an English clarifier attached to salvation

The Titus verse could be translated! “God revealed (displayed) the unmerited favor of salvation to all men.


Salvation was seen by all being brought to the party, but delivered to only those chosen by the Father.

No one will stand befor God at that final judgment and claim excuse of being ignorant, for John 1 and Romans 1 show not a single person having an excuse.

Well its a good thing we have our AUTHORITIES the scribes and pharisees. Its amazing how God the author of confusion ever got his message across if not for from the help of retarded vocabulary and grammar of our minority bretheren.

 

[agedman]

Well its a good thing we have our AUTHORITIES the scribes and pharisees. Its amazing how God the author of confusion ever got his message across if not for from the help of retarded vocabulary and grammar of our minority bretheren.

Your god may be the author of confusion, excess, and perversion, but not my Holy, Rigteous, and Just God.

 

[utilyan]

Your god may be the author of confusion, excess, and perversion, but not my Holy, Rigteous, and Just God.

Oh we got different Gods now? Sure I'll take the evil one. I'm honored you think you could use the most help.