Beliefs

[Havensdad]

So you believe that Jesus was saying that scientifically, there are only four winds, and that if anyonle shows there are more than four, them must be wrong, because otherwise Jesus dould be lying? Or is "four winds" a visual descriptor?

"Four winds" is not a visual description at all. It means the four points of a compass, the North wind, the South wind, the East wind, and the West wind.


Again, why the attacks against the scientific accuracy of the Bible? Why would you even desire to argue such a thing as a Christian? What is your purpose?

 

[Winman]

So you believe that Jesus was saying that scientifically, there are only four winds, and that if anyonle shows there are more than four, them must be wrong, because otherwise Jesus dould be lying?

When he spoke of the four winds, he was speaking of direction. In the scriptures you will see the north wind, south wind, east wind, and west wind. They did not divide it up into smaller subdivisions as we do today.

But the scriptures show that the wind "whirleth about", that is, it turns all directions.

Ecc 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

And the word circuits shows that the scriptures understood the winds travel around the earth in circles.

 

[Johnv]

No. Nowhere in scripture does it even allude to geocentrism.

Good luck with that. Winman disagrees with you, so by your definitions, one of you does nto believe the Bible.

Actually, he is describing end time events, and his second coming.

Well, we have a difficult enough time preaching the first coming...

 

[webdog]

No. Nowhere in scripture does it even allude to geocentrism.



Actually, he is describing end time events, and his second coming. He is using a real scenario, therefore that scenario must be scientifically accurate.

It is.

Prophecy is always done in a way the reader of the time would understand. This is the reason swords are mentioned in regards to battle. There was only one time zone when the passage was written, and it would not make any sense to the reader of the day. It is eisegesis to claim that passage is referring to time zones and people living in them. The passage is simply stating since we don't know the day or hour, it could be during the day when people are working, or at night while sleeping.

 

[Johnv]

When he spoke of the four winds, he was speaking of direction.

It's a little more than that, but you're correct. Jesus is speaking of vectors, not four actual winds. To imply that Jesus was saying there are only four physical winds as a matter of science is a misapplication of scripture. Likewise, to imply that Jesus was saying that the world is round when he referrs to being ready for the Coming is a misapplication of scripture.

 

[HankD]

I think the current trend of this thread is of little value or edification to anyone. I'm sorry I initiated it.

The Scripture does on ocassion limit itself to the retraints of known human knowledge and as far as I am concerned, this does not deny the infallibilty of the Scripture.

Because it is God's choice to meet us where we are in the frame work we are familiar with.

e.g.

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.​

Mark 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.​

Jesus as the Creator of the universe did not go into a scientific treatise concerning the appearance of the "rising" and "setting" of the sun, that the sun does not really "rise" in the sky but appears to do so because of the rotation of the spherical earth on its axis.​

Rather, He met us where we are and with what we saw with our eyes as the truth.​

That may be unsettling to some but as I said I do not believe this strikes against the infallibity of the Scriptures.

If you think so, what then is the alternative? Did Jesus (the Creator of the universe, the Second Person of the Trinity) actually believe that the sun revolved around the earth?

I can probably safely predict that some will go off on an eisogesis war campaign concerning the semantics of these Greek and Hebrew words "set" and "rise".

I am guilty as charged and I am sorry that I started this.

Personally, I don't care if the earth is flat, round, spherical, pyramidal, whatever.

I would also have no problem believing that the sun revolves around the earth in oppostion to the entire knowledge base of this world if I truly believed that was the message from the Scriptures.

After all, I am a young earth 6 sidreal day (23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.1 seconds) - ( does someone one to spilt the gnat's eyelash and say "solar day"?) creationist in oppostion to entire knowledge base of this world and most of Christianity.

I also believe in the virgin birth.
I guess I can believe anything God says within the framework of my faith.

Also, I personally allow that for others. If creative evolution can be part of your faith system and/or one sees the "days" of Genesis 1 as "epochs" then I for one (though I disagree with you) will not throw you into the lake of fire or question your salvation (directly or indirectly).

Neither do I believe will God (assuming of course you have rightly responded to the Gospel via the calling of the Father and the reproval/conviction of sin through the enlightenment of the Spirit of God).

I think for the benefit of our unity and fellowship in Christ (since we are getting carried away) we perhaps should terminate this debate.

Again, I am sorry that I initiated this sematic mixed martial arts bout.

HankD

 

[Havensdad]

Prophecy is always done in a way the reader of the time would understand. This is the reason swords are mentioned in regards to battle. There was only one time zone when the passage was written, and it would not make any sense to the reader of the day. It is eisegesis to claim that passage is referring to time zones and people living in them. The passage is simply stating since we don't know the day or hour, it could be during the day when people are working, or at night while sleeping.

Not at all. The Bible says all kind of things that did not necessarily make complete sense at the time.

Also, it doesn't say "It could be at this time, or it could be at this time." It makes a statement of fact, that they will both be taken at one time.

There was not one time zone: the earth functioned the same way as it did today. The reader might not have FULLY understood the passage at the time, but it is definitely teaching this.

Jesus said both would be taken at the same time: one at night sleeping, one at noonday working in the fields. I will simply believe that.

 

[Havensdad]

It's a little more than that, but you're correct. Jesus is speaking of vectors, not four actual winds. To imply that Jesus was saying there are only four physical winds as a matter of science is a misapplication of scripture. Likewise, to imply that Jesus was saying that the world is round when he referrs to being ready for the Coming is a misapplication of scripture.

That would only be true if Jesus said "I am coming, be ready." and then we inferred something by that.

That is not what He does. He states that one will be taken while in the fields, and the other while sleeping. If we simply take him at His word, we must believe in a round earth.

 

[Winman]

Prophecy is always done in a way the reader of the time would understand. This is the reason swords are mentioned in regards to battle. There was only one time zone when the passage was written, and it would not make any sense to the reader of the day. It is eisegesis to claim that passage is referring to time zones and people living in them. The passage is simply stating since we don't know the day or hour, it could be during the day when people are working, or at night while sleeping.

That is not so, they knew of people far away such as China which would absolutely be quite a few hours difference. And they knew of Spain to their west.
Isa 49:12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.

Most bible scholars agree that Sinim was the ancient name for China.

Rom 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

They knew from Spain to China in the days of Christ. That would probably cover half the earth.

 

[Johnv]

The Scripture does on ocassion limit itself to the retraints of known human knowledge and as far as I am concerned, this does not deny the infallibilty of the Scripture.

Because it is God's choice to meet us where we are in the frame work we are familair with.

Ding Ding Ding!!!! Absolutely correct. And in no way does that compromise the infallibility of scripture.

Personally, I don't care if the earth is flat, round, spherical, pyramidal, whatever.

Amen, preach it!!!

 

[Havensdad]

Ding Ding Ding!!!! Absolutely correct. And in no way does that compromise the infallibility of scripture.

But it doesn't always. Jesus makes a clear statement that exceeds general human knowledge of the time, but is perfectly scientifically accurate today.

The scriptures also teach that the Earth is round, it hangs in space, etc. These things are clear statements of fact, which are greater than the knowledge of the people of the time.

This is exactly what we expect, from a text inspired by the all powerful creator of the Universe.

Amen, preach it!!!

Why do you get so excited about someone allowing for scientific innacuracy in the Bible? What is your agenda? When Jesus says one is sleeping,and the other is out in the field, why wouldn't you just accept the scientific accuracy of that statement? Why would you try to explain that away?

I simply do not understand WHY you would want to do such a thing.

 

[Winman]

But it doesn't always. Jesus makes a clear statement that exceeds general human knowledge of the time, but is perfectly scientifically accurate today.

The scriptures also teach that the Earth is round, it hangs in space, etc. These things are clear statements of fact, which are greater than the knowledge of the people of the time.

This is exactly what we expect, from a text inspired by the all powerful creator of the Universe.



Why do you get so excited about someone allowing for scientific innacuracy in the Bible? What is your agenda? When Jesus says one is sleeping,and the other is out in the field, why wouldn't you just accept the scientific accuracy of that statement? Why would you try to explain that away?

I simply do not understand WHY you would want to do such a thing.

And it is these very verses of scripture where Jesus said some men would be in bed while others would be in the field working that non-believers and critics used to argue that the scriptures were full of error, because at the time they could not understand how such a thing could be possible.

 

[webdog]

That is not so, they knew of people far away such as China which would absolutely be quite a few hours difference. And they knew of Spain to their west.
Isa 49:12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.

Most bible scholars agree that Sinim was the ancient name for China.

Rom 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

They knew from Spain to China in the days of Christ. That would probably cover half the earth.

Sinim being China is not a majority view, in fact I believe the majority view Sinim with Sinai or Phoenicia. At any rate, it is an argument from silence.

 

[webdog]

I realize that a circle is not a sphere, but a sphere is a circle, but if you put all the scriptures together I believe it strongly implies the earth is a sphere.

And verses that show that the earth is a sphere where it is day on one side, and night on another are in Luke.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

You see in verse 34 that it is night and men are in bed, but in verse 36 it is day and men are in the field.

FYI...the jury is out on whether verse 36 should have been added since it is not in the majority of greek texts. Without that verse, you are clearly left with one timezone.

 

[Havensdad]

FYI...the jury is out on whether verse 36 should have been added since it is not in the majority of greek texts. Without that verse, you are clearly left with one timezone.

It is in the parallel account in Matthew.

Besides, women are also grinding: something typically done in the morning hours of daylight.

So: are you saying when Jesus comes back, there WON'T be some who are in bed sleeping at night, and others working out in the field in the middle of day? Was Jesus making a statement that was not true?

 

[webdog]

It is in the parallel account in Matthew.

Besides, women are also grinding: something typically done in the morning hours of daylight.

So: are you saying when Jesus comes back, there WON'T be some who are in bed sleeping at night, and others working out in the field in the middle of day? Was Jesus making a statement that was not true?

The account in Matthew says nothing of 2 being in bed, though, and the fact is some rise earlier than others Can't be used to prove it either way.

NOW...I believe there will be some sleeping and some awake, due to the entire earth being populated, but I don't believe the whole earth was populated when the passage was written.

 

[DHK]

The account in Matthew says nothing of 2 being in bed, though, and the fact is some rise earlier than others Can't be used to prove it either way.

Does it have to say anything about 2 being in bed? We already have a thread in another forum about arguing from silence. Jesus gave an example or two. He didn't say anything about 2 being at a computer, on a train, or even eating dinner which was a common occurrence of the day. He didn't have to. He was just giving an example. Argumentation from silence is no argument at all.

NOW...I believe there will be some sleeping and some awake, due to the entire earth being populated, but I don't believe the whole earth was populated when the passage was written.

Even it the world wasn't all populated at that time, does that limit the omniscience of Christ? He knew that at that time he was going to the cross. The earth would be far more populated when he would come back. He is speaking of a future event. Most prophecies were not fully understood by those to whom they were given. A quick glance at the OT and one can see that quite clearly. Did Eve realize that Christ would be born of a virgin from the prophecy in Genesis 3:15? Did she even know that the prophecy was concerning Christ and not one of her own sons? Did she realize that the event spoken of was the event that we call "the cross."?

 

[webdog]

Does it have to say anything about 2 being in bed? We already have a thread in another forum about arguing from silence. Jesus gave an example or two. He didn't say anything about 2 being at a computer, on a train, or even eating dinner which was a common occurrence of the day. He didn't have to. He was just giving an example. Argumentation from silence is no argument at all.

I'm sorry, but I didn't make the argument from silence...those who state the earth is round due to that passage is the argument from silence.

 

[DHK]

I'm sorry, but I didn't make the argument from silence...those who state the earth is round due to that passage is the argument from silence.

Perhaps I misunderstood your post.

 

[Winman]

Well, the whole passage in Luke shows many things.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The first thing Jesus compares his returning to is lightning. So I believe this is showing it will happen very suddenly, very quickly. And as lightning lights the whole sky, it shows it will happen everywhere.

But notice in verse 31 it says "in that day" and speaks of men on housetops, and men in the fields. So I think this is clearly speaking of daytime.

But then verse 34 it says "in that night" two men shall be in one bed. Now, that is a strange thing, two men in bed together, whether this is referring to homos-xuality or not, I wonder.

But I believe this shows the day of the Lord will be very sudden and happen everywhere at once, for some it will be daytime, for others it will be night.