believe, belief, faith, believe "in"

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
I Cor tells us we are baptized into one body and Acts tells us that at baptism, we are added to the body (Church). The baptism in Acts is clearly in water.

Well, true, the Acts 2 is clearly water. But context shows that it is for national Israel alone and not for salvation. It is to bring them into a right national covenantal relationship so that they will receive the Messiah Whom they crucified.

Note the correlation. Water doesn't saved! How can anything earthly have spiritual worth? Only the unseen baptism of God's Spirit counts!

What? Are you reading the same passage as me. Where in the context is water said to be bringing death and destruction? . . . You are taking this out of context. The water did not bring death and destruction to Noah and his family.

Wow! I can't believe I'm answering this one. This is so basic. I now understand why you have confusion on the harder items - because the elementals are over your head. Gen 7:21-23 clearly shows the death. Context rules! One had to read more than one itsy bitsy verse. The narrative cover 3 chapters.

Clearly I Peter 3:20 comes AFTER Noah's justification. How is it that you refuse to honor God's Word by refusing to read the entire passage?

What was the purpose for their repentance and baptism? Remission of sins. It is easy to understand.

Yes - it is easy. Context rules - again. Peter was preaching to national Israel. He urged them to return to Messiah Jesus. The remission of sins was a natinal repentance - not a personal issue of justification. When will you begin to use easy context? This is one of the first rules of biblical investigation.

By your logic, we can not have remission of sins, since Jesus never did anything for the remission of sins. Our faith cannot provide justification since it didn't provide Jesus justification.

Such silliness. Because water baptism doesn't count for justification doesn't mean there is no justification. We need to do water baptism for the right reasons - sanctification!

The scriptures plainly teach that baptism washes away our sins (Acts 22:16)

Another partial truth. The best way to understand this passage is to read the contextual foundation upon which it rests. In Acts 9:17, we see why Ananias was sent to Saul. Ananias told Paul, “Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

Notice first Ananias’ salutation! He said, “Brother Saul.” Why would this man of God call murdering Saul “brother?” The answer must be obvious. Saul was converted on the Damscus road and was already saved.

This is confirmed when we see the twofold purpose for which Ananias was sent:
___(1) He was sent that Saul might receive his eyesight and
___(2) that he would be filled with the Spirit.

You force denominational dogma upon Acts 22:16 to the disdain of Acts 9:17. When will you ever use ALL of the relevant passages? Even Ananias clearly shows that Paul’s baptism was not for the purpose to get him saved.

Paul himself verifies this through whenever he recounted his Damascus road salvation experience. In Acts 26:12-16, he mentions a light from heaven, a voice, a vision, and a commission as an apostle.

GOD DOES NOT COMMISSION THE UNSAVED TO BE HIS REPRESENTATIVE! This by itself should have straightened out any such human-centered appeals to water baptism.

If you are right, why is it that Paul never mentions baptism?! If you had consulted the context, you would have seen that forgiveness of sins (salvation) comes through faith in Jesus (Acts 26:18) – not linked with baptism of any sort.

Paul also recounted his Acts 26 Damascus road salvation experience in Galatians 1. His version is even shorter here. He mentions a revelation of Jesus and a commission to preach to the Gentiles. He specifically states that he did not confer with any human, especially not the apostles (Gal 1:12,16). If you are right, why is it that Paul never mentions baptism?!

Paul makes a quick reference to this in 1 Cor 9:1. He asks rhetorically, “have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?” If baptism was important, why didn’t Paul say, “have I not been baptized?” Paul makes his last reference to his salvation in 1 Cor 15:8. He shows that He saw Jesus but again makes no reference to baptism. If you are right, why is it that Paul never mentions baptism?!

Paul, himself comments on your errant view directly by denying that baptism has any part of the gospel message (1 Cor 1:14,17). So important is this denial of baptism that it is discussed elsewhere all by itself as a major refutation of the baptism heresy.

The silence of baptism in his very retellings denies any relationship between salvation and water baptism.

You need to use ALL of God's Word - not just the parts that are conducive to your denominational creeds.

Lloyd

 

[billwald]

>They were saved as soon as they entered into the covenant--at the time of circumcision--8 days old.<

All but 2 died in the wilderness. The Mosiac Covenant was strictly a social contract and had nothing to do with salvation or the next life.

"I do not follow any creed" is a creedal statement. Second, it doesn'y compute and only means "I wrote my own creed."

 

[Claudia_T]

It always amazes me how people go on and on about subjects such as this.

First of all, God is concerned about WHAT IS IN OUR HEARTS. If we are UNABLE to be baptised for whatever reason, then God is not going to hold that against us.

2Cor:8:12: For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

If you think that He would hold that against us, then you are taking the same sort of position as a Catholic and their "Last Rites". Like if someone doesnt get there in time before someone else dies to give them their last rites, then well thats just too bad for that poor soul. or if someone doesnt pay to get someone else out of Purgatory well then that's just too bad. Do you REALLY think God is that way, requiring something from us that we are incapable of giving?

Its just like the thief on the cross, he could not jump down from the cross and demonstrate his love for God by doing any good works, by refraining from sin, and so forth. Did God hold that against him? OF COURSE NOT!

Secondly, you know what? If the Bible says we need to be baptised, then JUST DO IT! It is more a willing mind and a desire to please God that matters more than anything else. Why think up every possible reason why you think maybe we might could get by without being baptised and still be saved? If the Bible says that we must be baptised then simply do what God says to do.

If you truly love God then you wont be looking to see how little you can get by with and still be saved.

OF COURSE the act of Baptism itself doesnt save us, it is what is in our hearts that God looks at. And if we truly believe in Jesus and appreciate all He has done for us we will be willing to be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

 

[Claudia_T]

Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have accepted the invitation, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty" (2 Cor. 6:17, 18). "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (chapter 7:1). . . .

Christ enjoins those who receive this ordinance to remember that they are bound by a solemn covenant to live to the Lord. They are to surrender all they have and are to God, employing all their gifts to God's glory.

Christ made baptism the entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Those who receive the ordinance of baptism thereby make a public declaration that they have renounced the world, and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. . . .

We are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4.

Let those who received the imprint of God by baptism heed these words, remembering that upon them the Lord has placed His signature, declaring them to be His sons and daughters. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, to receive the candidates who have renounced the world and have received Christ into the soul temple. These candidates have entered into the family of God, and their names are inscribed in the Lamb's book of life.

We are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and these three great, infinite powers are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf if we will cooperate with them. We are buried with Christ in baptism as an emblem of His death.

Those who have been buried with Christ in baptism are to rise to newness of life, giving a living representation of the life of Christ. Upon us is laid a sacred charge. The commission has been given us: "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:19, 20, margin. You are dedicated to the work of making known the gospel of salvation.

If you are buried with Jesus in baptism you will ever remember that you are dead to worldly interests and attractions, and have risen to seek those things which are above, these heavenly powers are pledged to give you power to walk with Him in newness of life.

We are buried with Christ in baptism as an emblem of his death. We are raised from the water as an emblem of his resurrection. We are to live as new-born souls, that we may be raised at the last great day. You are to live in newness of life; for you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." This is where you are to place your treasure.

By baptism you have taken upon you a solemn pledge. In the name and presence of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, you have solemnly covenanted to be the Lord's. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism unto death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness also of his resurrection." I think that if we all understood the sacred ceremony, we should see much more in it than we now discern.

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin; but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." "If ye then be risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

Baptism means NOTHING unless you understand these things and do them.

 

[Claudia_T]

Just as a side note. You know, when God commanded Adam and Eve NOT to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they were tempted and disobeyed God and ate of the fruit of the tree...

Do you really believe there were some kind of special properties in the tree itself that caused changes to take effect in them one way or another, whether for good or for ill?

No, it was the act of disobedience itself and the disloyalty and distrust of God that caused their downfall. The tree itself didnt have anything really to do with it. God was testing Adam and Eve to see whether or not they would OBEY Him.

Its the same in a way, with Baptism. The act of Baptism itself doesnt save you or cause you to be lost. It is your change of life and your desire to obey God and please Him that matters.

Matthew 3:
15: And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16: And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus was baptised, "to fulfill all righteousness" meaning that He became a man and fulfilled everything that we ourselves mudt do, in His own life, giving us an example to follow.

Being Baptised is a part of the fulfillment of righteousness in our own lives as well.


In the chapter that speak of Baptism:
Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


...the "end" of stopping yielding yourself to sin and instead yielding yourself to righteousness is EVERLASTING LIFE, the Bible says but continuing in sin is DEATH.


Romans 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Reading this, about being buried with Christ in Baptism, raised to a newness of life, yielding to righteousness now instead of our former life of sin... and having in the end of all this EVERLASTING LIFE.. How could anybody come away with the conclusion that being Baptised doesnt have anything to do with our salvation?

We are commanded to be baptised and not only that, but to follow through with the actual newness of life that this baptism signifies.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Baptism puts us into Christ (Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:3-4).

So then what are you guys proclaiming? That unless a person is baptised by water they cannot be in Christ?

The soldier in a fox hole, witnessed to by a fellow soldier, who crys out to Jesus cannot be saved unless he makes it to water? Do you believe that there is no such thing as a death bed confession which places a person in Christ?

The only way your proclamation holds truth is if you declare that God makes exceptions for many people. Is this what you believe? Or, are those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus damned if they die before they could be baptised in water?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Is that what I am proclaiming, that baptism puts us INTO Christ? That is what the BIBLE/GOD is proclaiming. Read it for yourself. Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27).

Do I have the authority to accept what I like and change what I don't like?

What happens to the person who is killed just before he believes?

I challenge you to find another way to get into Christ. If I don't like the way God has provided, can I make my own way? Surely you are not suggesting that one can be saved outside of Christ, are you? Salvation is "in Christ" - II Tim 2:10. All spriritual blessings are in Christ - Eph 1:3. Redemption through His blood is in Christ (Eph 1:7). According to the scriptures, how do we get "INTO CHRIST"? I am not making up the rules, and quite frankly, the truth does not depend on what I believe or don't believe. Truth is truth. Only the truth can set us free.

I know that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie (Heb 6:18). I also know that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Heb 11:6). Could God make an exception for the person who died just before they had faith? Wouldn't that make God a liar?

How did Saul call on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16)? In baptism. This is the only example we have of anyone actually "calling on the name of the Lord" and how they did it.

This is doing something in the name of, or with the authority of, the Lord. Our Lord said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned." - Mark 16:16.

Did Jesus really mean to say, "He that believeth is saved and shall be baptized when it is convienent", when he actually said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."? -Mark 16:16 If the first statement was what he said, then I would be right with you.

Did Peter really mean, "Repent for the remission of sins and be baptized because your sins are already forgiven", when he actually said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins"? - Acts 2:38

Did Ananias really mean, "Arise and call on the name of the Lord to wash away your sins, then be baptized", when he actually said, "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16

Did Peter really mean "Baptism doth now also NOT save you." when he actually said, "Baptism doth now also save you."? - I Pet 3:21

Did Paul really mean, "We are already in Christ, then we are baptized." when he actually said, "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus”?

Did Paul really mean, “For as many of you as were already in Christ and have put on Christ, were baptized” when he actually said, “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”?

The source of Faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). God's word is truth. It is possible to "exchanged the truth about God for a lie" (Rom 1:25).

So, should we believe the truth or a lie? Which one can set us free?

Truth - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

Lie - He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized

Truth - Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins

Lie - Repent for the remission of your sins and be baptized because they have already been forgiven.

Truth - Baptism now saves us
Lie - Baptism now does not save us

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
How did Saul call on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16)? In baptism. This is the only example we have of anyone actually "calling on the name of the Lord" and how they did it.

This is doing something in the name of, or with the authority of, the Lord. Our Lord said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned." - Mark 16:16.

Did Jesus really mean to say, "He that believeth is saved and shall be baptized when it is convienent", when he actually said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."? -Mark 16:16 If the first statement was what he said, then I would be right with you.

Did Peter really mean, "Repent for the remission of sins and be baptized because your sins are already forgiven", when he actually said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins"? - Acts 2:38

Did Ananias really mean, "Arise and call on the name of the Lord to wash away your sins, then be baptized", when he actually said, "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16

Did Peter really mean "Baptism doth now also NOT save you." when he actually said, "Baptism doth now also save you."? - I Pet 3:21

Learning comes slow. I've already discussed your errors with these verses. Let's do it again.

Acts 22:16 is taken out of context with the other clips of Paul's conversion. From Acts 9, we know that Ananias only baptised for sight and filling of the Spirit - not for salvation.

Mark 16:16 is the negative inference error. If Faith - Baptism - Works leads to salvation, does it naturally follow that works saves? Not way. The second half of the verse clearly denies this.

What you have is a combination of justification and sanctification in the overarching umbrella of salvation. Salvation encompasses both! Faith pertains to justification; baptism pertains to sanctification. But only "not believing" is sufficient for damnation. This is because sanctification has no part of one's eternal destiny.

Acts 2:38 is point designed for national Israel's acceptance of their Messiah (Who they crucified) before the impending judgment. This verse cannot be applied to Gentiles of any time period.

I Pet 3:21 refers to Noah who was already just and perfect BEFORE the Flood saga. Clearly baptism happens AFTER
justification.

Why do you continue to ignore context? Instead of directly answering the challenges of context, you will scurry to find more sanctification verses. Context rules! It is not wise to use just the parts of God's Word that are conducive to your denominational rhetoric. You must use ALL of God's Word.

When you fail to use context, you are then ever responding but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Lloyd

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings

Well, true, the Acts 2 is clearly water. But context shows that it is for national Israel alone and not for salvation. It is to bring them into a right national covenantal relationship so that they will receive the Messiah Whom they crucified.

Note the correlation. Water doesn't saved! How can anything earthly have spiritual worth? Only the unseen baptism of God's Spirit counts!

No, this was not for the nation of Israel alone. Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

Jesus gave the commission as recorded in Matt 28 and Mark 16. Terms such as “all nations” and “all the world” are used. Do you really think this was just for Israel?

You ask how anything earthly can have spiritual worth? Simple, faith. God said so. How can God use water to wash away leprosy? How can He use looking on a brass snake to cure snakebite? God’s ways are far above my ways. His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. How he can use water for me to come in contact with the blood of Christ, is beyond my understanding, but I accept it by faith.

Wow! I can't believe I'm answering this one. This is so basic. I now understand why you have confusion on the harder items - because the elementals are over your head. Gen 7:21-23 clearly shows the death. Context rules! One had to read more than one itsy bitsy verse. The narrative cover 3 chapters.

Clearly I Peter 3:20 comes AFTER Noah's justification. How is it that you refuse to honor God's Word by refusing to read the entire passage?

Before you belittle my understanding, maybe you should examine your own understanding. Peter is clearly showing how Noah was preserved through danger, brought safely through, saved out of danger, kept from perishing, rescued. It’s not talking about Noah’s justification, but his being brought safely through the flood waters. Corresponding to Noah’s deliverance, baptism also rescues us from danger or destruction. I am keeping it in its context. You take it out of context when you try to say that baptism is because we have already been rescued from destruction.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What was the purpose for their repentance and baptism? Remission of sins. It is easy to understand.

Yes - it is easy. Context rules - again. Peter was preaching to national Israel. He urged them to return to Messiah Jesus. The remission of sins was a natinal repentance - not a personal issue of justification. When will you begin to use easy context? This is one of the first rules of biblical investigation.</font>[/QUOTE]Again, baptism was “for the remission of sins”. The same gospel was preached to the Jews first, then to the Greeks (Rom 1:16). It was a personal issue, since each of them were to be baptized “for the remission of sins.” Not all of them accepted what Peter had to say. But “those who gladly F12 received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” – Acts 2:41

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />By your logic, we can not have remission of sins, since Jesus never did anything for the remission of sins. Our faith cannot provide justification since it didn't provide Jesus justification.

Such silliness. Because water baptism doesn't count for justification doesn't mean there is no justification. We need to do water baptism for the right reasons - sanctification! </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, so you do think there are two baptisms. What verse do you use to show that baptism is for sanctification? One verse you used, Acts 26:18, says, “sanctified by faith in Me”. If we are sanctified by faith, why would we need sanctification by baptism? Sanctification is by faith. God tells us what to do (Rom 10:17) and we obey, just like Paul did (Acts 26:19, Acts 22:16, Acts 9:18).

So, Jesus didn’t really mean, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. He really meant to say, “He that believeth shall be saved, then baptized to be sanctified.”?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The scriptures plainly teach that baptism washes away our sins (Acts 22:16)

Another partial truth. The best way to understand this passage is to read the contextual foundation upon which it rests. In Acts 9:17, we see why Ananias was sent to Saul. Ananias told Paul, “Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

Notice first Ananias’ salutation! He said, “Brother Saul.” Why would this man of God call murdering Saul “brother?” The answer must be obvious. Saul was converted on the Damscus road and was already saved.

This is confirmed when we see the twofold purpose for which Ananias was sent:
___(1) He was sent that Saul might receive his eyesight and
___(2) that he would be filled with the Spirit.

You force denominational dogma upon Acts 22:16 to the disdain of Acts 9:17. When will you ever use ALL of the relevant passages? Even Ananias clearly shows that Paul’s baptism was not for the purpose to get him saved.

Paul himself verifies this through whenever he recounted his Damascus road salvation experience. In Acts 26:12-16, he mentions a light from heaven, a voice, a vision, and a commission as an apostle.

GOD DOES NOT COMMISSION THE UNSAVED TO BE HIS REPRESENTATIVE! This by itself should have straightened out any such human-centered appeals to water baptism.</font>[/QUOTE]Ok, so you say Saul was saved on the road to Damascus. Let’s see what the text says. Acts 9:6 says, “ So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

Do you think this is optional or something he must do? Where was he to receive this instruction, on the road or in the city? What is the first thing that he is told to do? Well Acts 9 doesn’t tell us where he was ever told to “do” anything. Let’s go to Acts 22. The first thing he is told to do is “Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins.”

Now, if Saul’s sins were forgiven on the road as you claim, why did Ananias tell him what he needed to do to wash away his sins? We have a believer who has been praying for 3 days. He still needs his sins to be washed away.

You think that just because Ananias addressed him as Brother that he was already a Christian. No, that was a common greeting from one of Jewish descent to another. The Greek word is “Adelphos”. This same word is used in Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:37. If you look at the context, it is not “fellow Christian” but “fellow Jew”.

Acts 3:17 is another example where this word is used and it clearly not speaking of “fellow brother in Christ”. In fact, just a couple of verses later he tells them, “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,”

Compare Acts 3:19 to Acts 2:38

Repent=Repent
Be converted=Be Baptized
That your sins may be blotted out=For the remission of sins

The connection of Being converted and being baptized is obvious.

If you are right, why is it that Paul never mentions baptism?! If you had consulted the context, you would have seen that forgiveness of sins (salvation) comes through faith in Jesus (Acts 26:18) – not linked with baptism of any sort.

Paul also recounted his Acts 26 Damascus road salvation experience in Galatians 1. His version is even shorter here. He mentions a revelation of Jesus and a commission to preach to the Gentiles. He specifically states that he did not confer with any human, especially not the apostles (Gal 1:12,16). If you are right, why is it that Paul never mentions baptism?!

Paul makes a quick reference to this in 1 Cor 9:1. He asks rhetorically, “have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?” If baptism was important, why didn’t Paul say, “have I not been baptized?” Paul makes his last reference to his salvation in 1 Cor 15:8. He shows that He saw Jesus but again makes no reference to baptism. If you are right, why is it that Paul never mentions baptism?!

Paul, himself comments on your errant view directly by denying that baptism has any part of the gospel message (1 Cor 1:14,17). So important is this denial of baptism that it is discussed elsewhere all by itself as a major refutation of the baptism heresy.

The silence of baptism in his very retellings denies any relationship between salvation and water baptism.

You need to use ALL of God's Word - not just the parts that are conducive to your denominational creeds.

Lloyd

Why Paul did not mention “calling on the name of the Lord” either? Therefore, it must have no relationship to salvation, by your logic. He did not mention repentance either, so it denies any relationship between repentance and salvation, according to your logic. Paul does not mention confession either, so by your logic, there is no tie between that and salvation. Is that the way you use scripture. How many times does something have to be stated for it to be true?

What we have is the direct instruction give to Saul that says, “Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

By your many word, you cannot accept this simple statement, but must try to explain it away. You say his sins were already washed away on the road. Acts 26:19 says, “"Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision”. That means he went to the city, waited for instructions for what he “must do” and obeyed the instructions to arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. That is the context!

I fully concur with your last statement, “You need to use ALL of God's Word - not just the parts that are conducive to your denominational creeds.”

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
Learning comes slow. I've already discussed your errors with these verses. Let's do it again.

Acts 22:16 is taken out of context with the other clips of Paul's conversion. From Acts 9, we know that Ananias only baptised for sight and filling of the Spirit - not for salvation.

So, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name." - Acts 22:16, doesn't really mean what it says

Mark 16:16 is the negative inference error. If Faith - Baptism - Works leads to salvation, does it naturally follow that works saves? Not way. The second half of the verse clearly denies this.

So, Mark 16:16, doesn't mean what it says? That verse is so clear, you have to have help to misunderstand it. It tells what it takes to be saved and what it takes to be condemned.

First of all, baptism is not a work. You wrongly assume it is. The bible does not call it a work and neither should you. It is certain not a work of merit or something that would earn anything. In fact, it is part of faith. The bible says it is. Gal 3:26-27, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. The only time works are associated with baptism is in Col 2:12, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

What you have is a combination of justification and sanctification in the overarching umbrella of salvation. Salvation encompasses both! Faith pertains to justification; baptism pertains to sanctification. But only "not believing" is sufficient for damnation. This is because sanctification has no part of one's eternal destiny.

Mighty bold claim. Where are your scriptures to back this up? I can show where we are sanctified by faith. That doesn't seem to fit your formula. Justificaiton is by faith, but not faith only (James 2:24).

Heb 10:29 states, "counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified"

The blood of the convenant is what sanctifies and baptism is what sanctifies, then we come in contact with the blood at baptism. Does this fit the scriptures. Yes, Rom 6:3-4, we are baptized into his death and that is where his blood flowed. Eph 1:7, "In Him (Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace." - We are baptized INTO Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4) where we have redemption and forgivness of sins, through his blood.

I agree, "It is not wise to use just the parts of God's Word that are conducive to your denominational rhetoric. You must use ALL of God's Word.

When you fail to use context, you are then ever responding but never coming to the knowledge of the truth."

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
So, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name." - Acts 22:16, doesn't really mean what it says

So, Mark 16:16, doesn't mean what it says? That verse is so clear, you have to have help to misunderstand it. It tells what it takes to be saved and what it takes to be condemned.

Yes - it is clear. Salvation is two parts: justification by faith; sanctification by baptism. The only things that happens when you blend these easy topics is to make human effort the basis of justification. Big wrong!

Originally posted by mman:
Gal 3:26-27, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This is refering to Spirit Baptism. Anything that can't be seen counts for justification. If you can see it; it doesn't count for justification. Obedience counts for sanctification alone! You consistently fail to comprehend justification. Repeatedly, you use sanctification verses for justification. Seems easy to me; why do you stumble so hard?

Originally posted by mman:
The only time works are associated with baptism is in Col 2:12, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Christ's Baptism . . . God's power

Where in here do you twist the common sense reading to mean human anything? This is yet another reference to the Spirit's baptism. Note the word water is missing. Note that any reference to human activity is missing. This is a passive event for humans. Please - pay attention to the words without forcing your interpretation upon them. This is why we have so many cults.

Originally posted by mman:
The blood of the convenant is what sanctifies and baptism is what sanctifies, then we come in contact with the blood at baptism. Does this fit the scriptures. Yes, Rom 6:3-4, we are baptized into his death and that is where his blood flowed. Eph 1:7, "In Him (Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace." - We are baptized INTO Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4) where we have redemption and forgivness of sins, through his blood.

A fine string of denominational rhetoric. I've already shown you that Romans 6 comes AFTER five chapters of condemnation and justification by faith alone - apart from sacrament or sacrifice. Furthermore, the word "water" is missing altogether in Romans. Clearly, Romans 6 is Spirit baptism.

Eph 1:7 is speaking of Christ's work of redemption, not human participation in water baptism. This is your denominational creed being forced upon the text.

Gal 3:27. Water baptism is into - - - water. Here, the baptism is into - - - Christ. It is Spiritual baptism. This is a prime example of you ignoring Bible context. Context points to Spirit baptism; you twist it into water baptism.

As this post demonstrates, you have twisted scripture to match your denominational creeds. This is not Bible study.
Lloyd

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by steaver:

So then what are you guys proclaiming? That unless a person is baptised by water they cannot be in Christ?

The soldier in a fox hole, witnessed to by a fellow soldier, who crys out to Jesus cannot be saved unless he makes it to water? Do you believe that there is no such thing as a death bed confession which places a person in Christ?

The only way your proclamation holds truth is if you declare that God makes exceptions for many people. Is this what you believe? Or, are those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus damned if they die before they could be baptised in water?

God Bless!

Steaver,

bmerr here. Although mman has already responded to this post, I though I might have somewhat to add.

First off, regarding how one enters "into Christ", the Bible, to my knowledge, only gives one way: through baptism.

Paul wrote two verses that tell us that we are "bapitized into Christ". One is Rom 6:3, the other is Gal 3:27. Now it would be unwise for either of us to make the assumption of whether these verses speak of water baptism or Spirit baptism, without noting any available evidence.

In Rom 6:3-5, we read,

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We can see that the baptism Paul speaks of here is described as a burial, and a raising up again, in the likeness of Christs'. The only baptism I am aware of that conforms to this description is immersion in water. Do you know of another?

Also, in verse 5, we see a conditional statement, beginning with "if". They tend to take the form of "if/then" statements, although "then" is not always in the text.

But in verse 5, the text says "if we have been planted in the likeness of his death" [then] "we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."

So our being partakers of a resurrection like Christs' depends on our being planted, or buried in the likeness of his death. If Paul is speaking of water baptism here, (and I believe he is), then he is making baptism a requirement for those who would be in the resurrection of the righteous. Do you read that differently?

So to wrap up the first part of your post, it is not "us guys", but the Bible, that proclaims that unless one submits to a baptism that can be described as a burial and a raising up again, (I'd say water baptism is what the NT demands), then they cannot be "in Christ", since the only way "into Christ" is through such a baptism.

Now, concerning "foxhole", or "deathbed conversions", to be honest, I can't find anything like it in the whole of the NT. It's just not there. I would be overstepping my limits to say authoritatively that such a thing is possible, since the NT does not adress it.

But if you want my opinion, I'd say such people waited too long. They missed their opportunity for redemption. Also, if one is willing to grant an exception to the rule of baptism, why not grant exceptions to the rule of faith? "They were just about to believe, but the bus..."

For me, I'll stick to God's rules as best I can, as opposed to hoping He'll make an exception for me.

But you mentioned "calling on the name of the Lord", too, didn't you? It's a rare occasion thus far, but I'm going to have to correct my brother, mman. He said,

Originally by mman:

How did Saul call on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16)? In baptism. This is the only example we have of anyone actually "calling on the name of the Lord" and how they did it.

There is, in fact, at least one other example.

In Acts 2, (and contrary to popular opinion, there were Gentiles present - 2:10 - "strangers of Rome...Proselytes"), while Peter was preaching to the primarily Jewish crowd, he quoted Joel 2:32, just like Paul did in Rom 10:13.

As the Holy Spirit used Peter to bring the message to its' conclusion, the audiences' reaction is recorded in 2:37, which reads,

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Now why do you suppose they asked that? Hadn't Peter just told them that "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"? He sure had, back in 2:21! So why didn't they jsut call on His name?

Because, they were saying, by implication, that they did not know how to call on the name of the Lord. (To "call on the name" of someone is to appeal to their authority).

We all know what Peter told them to do, don't we? What did Peter not tell them to do? He did not tell them to,

- say the sinner's prayer

- just trust in the finished work of Jesus

- stop worrying, God know your hearts

- believe to be justified, be baptized to be sanctified

- kiss the Pope's ring (I couldn't resist!)

Peter's message in Acts 2 was the first gospel sermon under the New Testament in Jesus' blood. It was not only for national Israel, as some well-intentioned "Scripture wresters" might tell you, it is as applicable today as it was nearly 2000 years ago.

It's "the old Jerusalem gospel" that is able to save those who receive it.

No spin, no hype, just the truth.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings

Yes - it is clear. Salvation is two parts: justification by faith; sanctification by baptism. The only things that happens when you blend these easy topics is to make human effort the basis of justification. Big wrong!

Where are your scriptures to back up these claims?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Gal 3:26-27, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This is refering to Spirit Baptism. Anything that can't be seen counts for justification. If you can see it; it doesn't count for justification. Obedience counts for sanctification alone! You consistently fail to comprehend justification. Repeatedly, you use sanctification verses for justification. Seems easy to me; why do you stumble so hard?</font>[/QUOTE]What in the text leads you to believe this isn't baptism in water? The common usage of baptism in that day was immersion in water. Unless something in the text dictates otherwise, it is in water.

If I say it is raining outside, you don't have to wonder if it is water falling from the sky. I don't have to say it is raining water for you to understand. If I modify my statement and say it is raining pinecones under that tree, you know that pinecones are falling and not water. For one who keeps harping on context, you sure don't have a good handle on it.

Nothing in the text suggest that baptism means anything other than the common useage of the word in this text. I Pet 3:21 tells us that baptism is in water, if you had any doubts. Also Acts 8.

Acts 26:18 says sanctification is by faith yet you say it is by obedience.

You make a lot of claims. What scripture are you using to back up what you are saying?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
The only time works are associated with baptism is in Col 2:12, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Christ's Baptism . . . God's power

Where in here do you twist the common sense reading to mean human anything? This is yet another reference to the Spirit's baptism. Note the word water is missing. Note that any reference to human activity is missing. This is a passive event for humans. Please - pay attention to the words without forcing your interpretation upon them. This is why we have so many cults.</font>[/QUOTE]All I did was quote the verse. It must not have meant what you wanted it to mean. See my previous comment about baptism.

This is a baptism with Christ, not a baptism by Christ. This is a burial. Look at the context.

Are you buried in the Spirit, then raised up out of that Spirit? Context.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
The blood of the convenant is what sanctifies and baptism is what sanctifies, then we come in contact with the blood at baptism. Does this fit the scriptures. Yes, Rom 6:3-4, we are baptized into his death and that is where his blood flowed. Eph 1:7, "In Him (Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace." - We are baptized INTO Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4) where we have redemption and forgivness of sins, through his blood.

A fine string of denominational rhetoric. I've already shown you that Romans 6 comes AFTER five chapters of condemnation and justification by faith alone - apart from sacrament or sacrifice. Furthermore, the word "water" is missing altogether in Romans. Clearly, Romans 6 is Spirit baptism.</font>[/QUOTE]Spirit baptism in Romans 6. Are you kidding? How would spiritual baptism be a death, burial, and resurrection? Again, there is nothing in the text to imply that the ordinary meaning of baptism should not be used. This is really grasping of straws.

Justification is by faith, no doubt about it. No arguements from me. What most people don't understand is biblical faith.

By faith, the walls of Jericho fell down (Heb 11:30). Did this require action? Did this happen the moment they believed? God had already given Jericho to them, it was a gift. Did their actions earn them anything or obligate God? Of course not. If it had, then we could perform those same actions today and God would be obligated to cause the walls to fall. No, their obedience didn't earn them anything. The walls fells by faith, after being encompassed seven days.

Eph 1:7 is speaking of Christ's work of redemption, not human participation in water baptism. This is your denominational creed being forced upon the text.

I'm sorry, what creed are you talking about? I don't follow a creed. Do you?

Redemption is in Christ. We are baptised INTO Christ. You want to change the everyday meaning of baptism into an obscure meaning.

Preaching Jesus includes water baptism. Acts 8

Gal 3:27. Water baptism is into - - - water. Here, the baptism is into - - - Christ. It is Spiritual baptism. This is a prime example of you ignoring Bible context. Context points to Spirit baptism; you twist it into water baptism.

No, it "in water" and "Into Christ". You are the one not wanting to use the common everday usage of the word and make it mean something else.

See, here is water, what doth hinder me from being baptized? - Acts 8:36

As this post demonstrates, you have twisted scripture to match your denominational creeds. This is not Bible study.
Lloyd [/qb]

AMEN!

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
Where are your scriptures to back up these claims?

Have you never done a lexical survey of the word justification? No wonder you can't keep your end of a level exchange. Let me help you. I happen to have it saved electronically.


SORTED BY VOICE, THEN TENSE

ACTIVE VOICE
Luke 10:29; Pres Act Inf; The lawyer, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus …
Luke 16:15; Pres Act Ptcp; You are those who are justifying yourselves before men.
Rom 3:26; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One justifying those who believe in Jesus.
Rom 8:33; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One Who justifies.
Gal 3:8; Pres Act Ind; God would justify the heathen through faith.
Rom 3:30; Fut Act Ind; God will justify by faith.
Rom 8:30; Aor Act Ind; Those who he called, he justified and glorified.
Luke 7:29; Aor Act Ind; The publicans justified God.

PASSIVE VOICE
Acts 13:39; Pres Pass Ind; All who believe are justified
Rom 3:24; Pres Pass Ptcp; Being justified freely by his grace through Jesus’ redemption.
Rom 3:28; Pres Pass Infin; We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:5; Pres Act Ptcp; Those who believe in Jesus are justified. Faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16; Pres Pass Ind; We are not justified by the works of the law.
Gal 3:11; Pres Pass Ind; No one is justified by the law. The just (dikaios) shall live by faith.
Gal 5:4; Pres Pass Ind; Christ is of no effect if you are justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace.
James 2:24; Pres Pass Ind; A man is justified by works and not by faith only.
Matt 11:19; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified of her children.
Luke 7:35; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified by her children.
Rom 3:4; Aor Pass Subj; God’s Word is given that you might be justified.
Rom 4:2; Aor Pass Ind; If Abraham was justified by works he can boast.
Rom 5:1; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Rom 5:9; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by Jesus’ blood, we shall be saved from God’s wrath.
I Cor 6:11; Aor Pass Ind; We are justified and sanctified in Jesus’ name by God’s Spirit.
Gal 2:17; Aor Pass Infin; If we seek to be justified by Christ and found to be sinners, is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!
Gal 3:24; Aor Pass Subj; The law brought us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
I Tim 3:16; Aor Pass Ind; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, believed in the world, and received up into glory.
Tit. 3:7; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs.
James 2:21; Aor Pass Ind; Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac?
James 2:25; Aor Pass Ind; Rahab was justified by works.
Rev 22:11; Aor Pass Imper; He who is righteous, let him be righteous still.
Matt 12:37; Fut Pass Ind; You will be justified by your words.
Rom 2:13; Fut Pass Ind; The doers of the law will be justified.
Rom 3:20; Fut Pass Ind; No one will be justified by the deeds of the law.
Luke 18:14; Perf Pass Ptcp; The publican went away justified.
Rom 6:7; Perf Pass Ind; He that is dead is freed (justified) from sin.
I Cor 4:4; Perf Pass Ind; I am not yet justified (because of stewardship).

Q1: Where in this 100% survey of the word group dikaiow do you see active human obedience that counts for justification?
A1: NOWHERE.

Q2: Where do you see the words "water" or "baptism?"
A2: NOWHERE.

Evangelical Christianity simply looks to the Bible. The cult of water baptism scurries to denominatal creeds, obfuscation of context, and rebellious failure to admit error.

You asked for the data. Here it is. Since baptism isn't included in justification, it is part of sanctification. Do you need beginner's help with sanctification as well?

So where is there a verse that says one is justified by water baptism?

Gotcha!
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Originally posted by mman:
This [Col 2:11-12] is a baptism with Christ, not a baptism by Christ. This is a burial. Look at the context.

You must have had your "hope-it-is-human-water-blinders" on. There is absolutely nothing water or human in these verses.

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

The fact that the word "buried" is used merely refers to the Spirit's immersion of the believer into Christ (I Cor 12:13). He is the One Who seals us unto the Day of Redemption (Eph 4:30). Romans 6 verifies that waterless Spirit baptism comes AFTER justification. Peter's reference to Noah shows that baptism comes AFTER justification (Gen 6:8-9). Jesus' water baptism shows that it is NOT DONE for justification. Cornelius shows that water baptism happens AFTER justification.

Everything in these verses points to spiritual activity. There is no reference to water or other humans. It takes denominational creeds to make this happen.

Ignorance of context leads to big errors.
Lloyd

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
Where are your scriptures to back up these claims?

Have you never done a lexical survey of the word justification? No wonder you can't keep your end of a level exchange. Let me help you. I happen to have it saved electronically.


SORTED BY VOICE, THEN TENSE

ACTIVE VOICE
Luke 10:29; Pres Act Inf; The lawyer, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus …
Luke 16:15; Pres Act Ptcp; You are those who are justifying yourselves before men.
Rom 3:26; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One justifying those who believe in Jesus.
Rom 8:33; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One Who justifies.
Gal 3:8; Pres Act Ind; God would justify the heathen through faith.
Rom 3:30; Fut Act Ind; God will justify by faith.
Rom 8:30; Aor Act Ind; Those who he called, he justified and glorified.
Luke 7:29; Aor Act Ind; The publicans justified God.

PASSIVE VOICE
Acts 13:39; Pres Pass Ind; All who believe are justified
Rom 3:24; Pres Pass Ptcp; Being justified freely by his grace through Jesus’ redemption.
Rom 3:28; Pres Pass Infin; We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:5; Pres Act Ptcp; Those who believe in Jesus are justified. Faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16; Pres Pass Ind; We are not justified by the works of the law.
Gal 3:11; Pres Pass Ind; No one is justified by the law. The just (dikaios) shall live by faith.
Gal 5:4; Pres Pass Ind; Christ is of no effect if you are justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace.
James 2:24; Pres Pass Ind; A man is justified by works and not by faith only.
Matt 11:19; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified of her children.
Luke 7:35; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified by her children.
Rom 3:4; Aor Pass Subj; God’s Word is given that you might be justified.
Rom 4:2; Aor Pass Ind; If Abraham was justified by works he can boast.
Rom 5:1; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Rom 5:9; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by Jesus’ blood, we shall be saved from God’s wrath.
I Cor 6:11; Aor Pass Ind; We are justified and sanctified in Jesus’ name by God’s Spirit.
Gal 2:17; Aor Pass Infin; If we seek to be justified by Christ and found to be sinners, is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!
Gal 3:24; Aor Pass Subj; The law brought us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
I Tim 3:16; Aor Pass Ind; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, believed in the world, and received up into glory.
Tit. 3:7; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs.
James 2:21; Aor Pass Ind; Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac?
James 2:25; Aor Pass Ind; Rahab was justified by works.
Rev 22:11; Aor Pass Imper; He who is righteous, let him be righteous still.
Matt 12:37; Fut Pass Ind; You will be justified by your words.
Rom 2:13; Fut Pass Ind; The doers of the law will be justified.
Rom 3:20; Fut Pass Ind; No one will be justified by the deeds of the law.
Luke 18:14; Perf Pass Ptcp; The publican went away justified.
Rom 6:7; Perf Pass Ind; He that is dead is freed (justified) from sin.
I Cor 4:4; Perf Pass Ind; I am not yet justified (because of stewardship).

Q1: Where in this 100% survey of the word group dikaiow do you see active human obedience that counts for justification?
A1: NOWHERE.</font>[/QUOTE]Human obedience? Let's see. James certainly includes it, but you don't agree with James, I'm sure.

Romans 2:13 talks about obedience rather than just hearing.

Many of these references talk about the old law not being able to justify us. I am familiar with all these verses.

One I would like to focus on in Heb 5:9, "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Only the blood of Jesus can wash away sins. How do we come in contact with the blood? Oh that is the question. What do the scriptures say? Where did his blood flow? At his death? Romans 6:4 says that we are baptized into his death. Lets go another route. Heb 9:22 says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. I know we all agree on that point. Acts 2:38 says that baptism is for the remission of sins, again tying baptism to the blood and remission of sins. Eph 1:7 says "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace". In whom? Christ. How do we get into Christ? Again, back to baptism (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27). But someone may say, baptism is a work and we are saved by faith. We are saved by faith, no argument. Most people don't understand biblical faith. Read Gal 3:26-27. It says we are childern of God by faith because we have been baptized INTO Christ. Lets go another route, what else did Jesus' blood do? It purchased the church, according to Acts 20:28. Christ is savior of the body (Eph 5:23) which is the church (Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18). How do we get INTO the church? We are baptized into the church (I Cor 12:13). Christ adds to the church those who are being saved (Acts 2:47). Baptism adds us the the church. When Philip taught the Eunuch, he preached Jesus which included water baptism (Acts 8:35-36). See how nicely this all ties together. Baptism washes away our sins. Isn't that exactly what Saul was told to do after believing and praying for 3 days,"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord Acts 22:16." Why did this believer have sins to be washed away after 3 days of praying? Only because he had not come in contact with the blood of Christ. You see, it is not the water, but the blood of Jesus. Not because God owes us anything or we earn anything in baptism, but by our faithful obedience. You cannot lay out a logical explaination using scriptures of how we come in contact with the blood, how we get into Christ, or how we get into the Church without mentioning baptism.

Did you ever wonder why blood and water came forth from Jesus' side (John 19:34). It makes perfect sense, we come in contact with the blood in baptism.

Q2: Where do you see the words "water" or "baptism?"
A2: NOWHERE.

I Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The Corinthians had been baptized upon their belief (Acts 18:8).

You have to look at all that God has said, not just part of it.

Evangelical Christianity simply looks to the Bible. The cult of water baptism scurries to denominatal creeds, obfuscation of context, and rebellious failure to admit error.

You asked for the data. Here it is. Since baptism isn't included in justification, it is part of sanctification. Do you need beginner's help with sanctification as well?

So where is there a verse that says one is justified by water baptism?

Gotcha!
Lloyd [/qb]

Is this a game to you? You condensending attitude is not apprecitated, but not uncommon on this board.

Ok, Rom 3:24 "and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"

This occurs in Christ. How do we get INTO Christ. We are BAPTIZED into Christ. You can keep on searching, but there is only one way INTO Christ and that is baptism. Yes, you have to look at all of scripture, not just one piece.

Sure, I'll take beginner's help with sanctification. Where does it say baptism sanctifies us, as you claim?

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
This [Col 2:11-12] is a baptism with Christ, not a baptism by Christ. This is a burial. Look at the context.

You must have had your "hope-it-is-human-water-blinders" on. There is absolutely nothing water or human in these verses.

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

The fact that the word "buried" is used merely refers to the Spirit's immersion of the believer into Christ (I Cor 12:13). He is the One Who seals us unto the Day of Redemption (Eph 4:30). Romans 6 verifies that waterless Spirit baptism comes AFTER justification. Peter's reference to Noah shows that baptism comes AFTER justification (Gen 6:8-9). Jesus' water baptism shows that it is NOT DONE for justification. Cornelius shows that water baptism happens AFTER justification.

Everything in these verses points to spiritual activity. There is no reference to water or other humans. It takes denominational creeds to make this happen.

Ignorance of context leads to big errors.
Lloyd [/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]No, everything points to a baptism in water. Since you cannot show from the text where it means something other than the common meaning, you wave your hand and say "Prestso", and the water is gone?

Do you try to squeeze the water out of I Pet 3:21 also? What about Acts 8? For someone who claims to take things in context, you have to do some mental gymnastic of olympic caliber to remove the water from baptism.

For anyone with common sense reading Rom 6 could easily see the connection between being buried in and raised from the waters of baptism, but it would take much twisting and help for them to misunderstand it as something else.

Rom 6:17, says they had obeyed a form of that doctrine. What doctrine? The death, burial, and resurrection as seen in Rom 6:3-4. How could one obey "spiritual" baptism? That doesn't even make sense.

May I suggest that you read the bible and get your doctrine than read the bible to prove your doctrine.

Now, did Jesus really mean, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" or did he mean something else?

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
Human obedience? Let's see. James certainly includes it, but you don't agree with James, I'm sure.

Romans 2:13 talks about obedience rather than just hearing.

Yes James mentions it. Why can't you use it in the context in which it comes? It was written to believers already saved. This definition of justificaiton is before men - not GOD.

One I would like to focus on in Heb 5:9, "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Only the blood of Jesus can wash away sins. How do we come in contact with the blood? Oh that is the question. What do the scriptures say?

Here you go again using verses already shown to be related to sanctificaiton.

Romans 6:4 comes AFTER justification. It is an issue of sanctification.

Heb 9:22 says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. This refers to Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. This is something not possible for any human to duplicate. This is the basis of justification and has no part in human activity.

Again, you use Acts 2:38 out of context. It is for national Israel to repent and receive their crucified Messiah before the A.D. 70 judgment falls. It is grave error to take things point designed for national Israel and force them into a system for Gentiles.

Read Gal 3:26-27. It says we are childern of God by faith because we have been baptized INTO Christ.

Again, the Spirit alone baptizes us into Christ. This is not water baptism. It is grave error to make these assumptions.

When Philip taught the Eunuch, he preached Jesus which included water baptism (Acts 8:35-36).

But Philip made sure that baptism only came AFTER justification. When he got the verbal evidence that the Eunuch was already justified, then he baptized him in the water. Justification first - only then water baptism.

See how nicely this all ties together.

Saul was told,"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord Acts 22:16." Why did this believer have sins to be washed away after 3 days of praying? Only because he had not come in contact with the blood of Christ.

Wrong-O! Acts 26:16-18 shows that God had already commissioned this saved murder to be an apostle to the Gentiles. Acts 9 shows that Ananias greeted him as "brother." Even the verse you quote only mentions eyesight and the Spirit's filling. The Spirit's filling is an issue of sanctificcation - not justification. How long will you use sanctification as a proof of justification? This is grave error.

Originally from ascund
Q2: Where do you see the words "water" or "baptism?"
A2: NOWHERE.

Originally from mman
I Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Wrong again. This only shows that justification and sanctification are in parallel. Justification is in the name of the Lord and by the Spirit of God - not water.

Lloyd: Is this a game to you? You condensending attitude is not apprecitated, but not uncommon on this board.

This is definately not a game. It was an exclamation showing you the futility of depending on human-centered self-righteousness. It shows the bankruptcy of your view. Your attempt to link water with 1 Cor 6:11 failed. Even the very verse you used linked justification to God's operation - not to water.

Water baptism sanctifies because it has no part of justification. Everything not associated with justification is sanctification. When one understands justification, then one understands sanctification.

This is a long post already. Sanctification in the next post.

I'm not condescending. But I want you to see that there is no hope in a system that depends on human activity. Check out Isa 64:6.
Lloyd

 

[Claudia_T]

Mt:3:11: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Man can baptise someone with water and only God can baptise them afterward with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told us to baptise others... the only way we can do that is with water baptism, the rest is up to God.

1Peter 3:
18: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

If the 8 people had not of obeyed God and gotten into the boat like He told them to... and rode on the water, then they'd of been lost.

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Here is the promised post on sanctification. Any proper lexical analysis of this would shows that sanctification is a both a PROCESS of spiritual growth and the EVENT of separation.

The Greek hagiazow (29x) means: to hallow – as in worship of God, to separate – as in believers versus non-believers, and to purify – as in the process of faith + obedience spiritual growth.

As an event, sanctification is a permanent (Acts 20:32) where God’s inheritance is given to all who are sanctified. Since inheritance is in parallel with sanctification, it must also be an EVENT. Believers are separated unto God. The Perfect Passive shows that a permanent EVENT has happened to the believer. The believer fulfills no conditions in a passive voice. The permanent results of the perfect tense cannot be undone without another declarative sentence to the contrary. In so introducing this aspect of the temporal tenses, you either come up to speed on lexical stuff or get hopeless swamped and rely again on denominational creeds.

Forgiveness of sins is linked with inheritance and permanent sanctification by faith (Acts 26:18). Clearly, since sanctification is a permanent EVENT, so also is inheritance and forgiveness. Believers are sanctified by God’s Spirit (Rom. 15:16) in Christ (I Cor. 1:2). Believers have been permanently set aside through Christ’s offering (Heb. 10:10). God has perfected forever those who are being cleansed (Heb. 10:14). Christians have been sanctified and perfectly preserved by God the Father in Jesus Christ (Jude 1). Paul links the (aorist) EVENT of justification with the (aorist) EVENT of sanctification (I Cor. 6:11). EVENT justification is a virtual synonym for EVENT sanctification.

Sanctification is a PROCESS in which Christ sanctifies and cleanses His Church with the washing of the Word (Eph. 5:25-6). Cleansing happens by God’s word and prayer (I Tim. 4:5). Cleansing is needed for service to the Master (II Tim. 2:21). No doubt you can find lots more verses here.

But this is exactly where your confusion begins. Because you do not have a complete lexical understanding, you wrongly assume that the faith + obedience process is the only aspect of sanctification. It is a big mistake to take one definition and mindlessly apply it to every occurrence of sanctification.

The word run – the largest semantic domain in the English language – provides a good example of this folly. Consider the following three sentences.

I run a race.
My nose is running.
Let me run this idea past you.

Confusion reigns if the definition of “run” from any one sentence is put it into the other sentences! Native English speakers don’t get confused because they understand the different definitions of the word from its context. Human centered theology twists the faith + obedience process sanctification verses to imply conditional justification without understanding the event sanctification verses.


Distinct! Parallel!
Proper theology is not always an {either/or} choice. One is not forced to pick a PROCESS over an EVENT or vice versa. Proper theology has many instances of {both/and} harmonization.[fn2]

Justification was the forensic EVENT by which God imputed Christ’s righteousness to the believer and established the believer in God’s eternal covenantal family. Sanctification is God’s ACTIVITY whereby:

(1) God has separated the believer to Himself [John 10:36 (aor act), Acts 20:32 (perf pass), Acts 26:18 (perf pass), Rom. 15:16 (perf pass), I Cor. 1:2 (perf pass), I Cor. 6:11 (aor pass), Heb. 10:10 (perf pass), Heb. 10:14 (perf pass [fn3]), Heb. 10:29 (aor pass), and Jude 1 (perf pass)]. These EVENTS are predominantly in the perfect tense. Justification seals one’s eternal destiny.

(2) God works in the believer to bring us to perfection. These PROCESSES are predominantly in the present tense. Sanctification determines one’s ever changing rewards.

Sadly, you only see the latter verses. Even worse, you confuses destiny with rewards as well as justification with sanctification. It is one of the worst possible mistakes to confuse justification with sanctification. It is a lesser error to overlook the Greek tenses behind the different uses of sanctification. You failed to do this when you used 1 Cor 6:11 a post or so ago. I doubt you make this error with normal English. why would you do it with God's Word??


Harmony!
True biblical harmony is achieved by acknowledging that both sets of verses are true – in different applications. Justification is an EVENT without question that leads to eternal destiny. Sanctification is both the EVENT of separation unto God’s kingdom and the PROCESS of faith + obedience leading to purification and heavenly rewards.

Believers have been “perfected” while they are “being sanctified” (Heb. 10:14). “Perfected” refers to the EVENT of justification while “being sanctified” refers to the PROCESS of sanctification.

Believers are washed, sanctified and justified at the same time (I Cor. 6:11). While justification is strictly an EVENT, the EVENT of sanctification readily meshes with justification.

Being justified and being glorified are viewed as an historic EVENT (Rom. 8:30). Glorification is the end result of both justification and sanctification.

Scripture interprets justification and sanctification in harmony. Error pits the Bible against itself in dishonor and confusion.

This is a mighty big chew for you.
Hope you read it!
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Hi Claudia

Great Post.

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Man can baptise someone with water and only God can baptise them afterward with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told us to baptise others... the only way we can do that is with water baptism, the rest is up to God.

This shows the distinction of justification from sanctification. It is good work. However, when you say . . .

If the 8 people had not of obeyed God and gotten into the boat like He told them to... and rode on the water, then they'd of been lost.

then you make an error. If they had failed in their sanctified obedience to build a good Ark, then they would have physically died in the waters of destruction. However, since NOah was ALREADY SAVED, he would have gone directly to heaven.

"Lost" is NOT a synonym for eternal damnation.
Lloyd