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Believe it or not

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Mar 27, 2003.

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  1. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    C'mon Mr. Bill. Surely you've heard others give the obvious answer to this. "They were fanatics who made up these fairy stories in order to spread their religion." Or, "Miracles don't happen, so how can you believe anything the authors of the Bible say about Jesus?" Better still, "Those books wern't even written by eyewitnesses." (Substitute your favorite rationalization here.)

    I've given lectures on the historicity of the Bible, yet 99% of those in the audience still won't believe it is reliable. Why not? When presented with compelling evidence (and the evidence truly is compelling), why don't they believe it? On the other hand, why do some rational people believe it without ever needing to hear the strength of the evidence?

    Because this kind of truth is not intellectually discerned, that's why. There's a LOT more to this than just the strength of the evidence.

    I'd continue to demonstrate how ridiculous your assertion is, Mr. Bill, but since I suspect it is not what most arminians/free-will advocates assert, I'd rather address what they believe, not what you believe. If they're willing to say they agree entirely with you, then I'll come back to this.
     
    #21 npetreley, Mar 28, 2003
  2. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Bro. Bill,

    You wrote, "How is that different than accepting the testimony of the disciples about Christ's claims? He backed his claims up with supernatural signs, his resurrection, inspired testimony and his indwelling of saints through the Holy Spirit. Is that not enough evidence for anyone who is willing to decide if His claims were true or false?"

    The Biblical evidence in and of itself is not compelling to lead to Individual Faith. When two intelligent people read the same Bible and one says, "Hallelujah what a Savior," and the other says, "Hogwash, What a bunch of Baloney," something has happened to one that did not happen to the other and it's more than willingness to believe.

    One Saw the Truth - The Other Didn't.

    Why did one see and one didn't see?

    The Holy Spirit Revealed the Truth to one and not the other.

    Yelsew said in a previous discussion that he is a Christian and his brother is not. He said it will take a miracle for his brother to become a Christian.

    I concur with Yelsew. I believe every Conversion to Christianity is a supernatural conversion.
     
    #22 Hardsheller, Mar 28, 2003
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    And a double-amen to that. But that is OUR view, apparently, and I guess it might be Yelsew's view, too.

    Nevertheless, I can't even get any of the arminians besides Mr. Bill to address the issue of the Holy Spirit, let alone get to the point of whether or not the conversion is supernatural.
     
    #23 npetreley, Mar 28, 2003
  4. William C

    William C New Member

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    Why not? Is the Bible not a reliable source? Has it not been proven to be a source of truth? Why do you trust secular history books which teach us facts about human history but wouldn't believe the Bible about facts concerning God's intervention in human history? It's not consistant.

    You have to have a measure of faith to believe history books and you must have a measure of faith to believe the Bible. I personally believe there is much more evidence supporting the claims of the scripture than their is supporting the claims of most history books. Don't you?

    Where in scripture does it say that Spiritual rebirth is needed before one can affirm the facts of the scripture with human reason?

    18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. 19 If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; 20 But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword"; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

    Apparently God thinks man has the ability to "reason" these spiritual matters, why don't you?

    Also, there are people all over the world who believe ubsurd teachings. Buddists believe some "unreasonable" stuff. Why? Is it because the spirit of Budda revealed it to them? Of course not.
     
    #24 William C, Mar 28, 2003
  5. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Bill,

    So now you're saying that Christianity is like all other religions. Right?

    Simply Man's belief about God? Right?

    I'm sorry but you're mistaken.

    I don't believe in Jesus Christ like a Buddhist believes in Buddha.

    I believe in Jesus Christ because I CANNOT believe in any other for salvation because the H.S. has compelled me to believe that the Gospel is true and has revealed it to my heart as the absolute truth of the universe regarding the salvation of my soul.

    And no I don't trust History Books like I trust the Bible. I trust History Books only as far as they present the truth as validated by historical record and scientific data.

    I trust the Bible by the power of the Holy Spirit that resides in me and has resided in me since I was regenerated.
     
    #25 Hardsheller, Mar 28, 2003
  6. William C

    William C New Member

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    No, Christianity is right. Other religions are wrong. My experience validates that to me. The Biblical and historical evidence validates that to me. And the HS within me now validates this to me, but He didn't validate it until after I believed.

    The scripture says "Call unto me and I will show you great and mighty things." It doesn't say he will show us great and mighty things so that we will call unto him.

    Someone expressed faith in Christ for healing, then he healed them because of their faith. He didn't heal them so they would get faith. However, their healing no doubt increased their faith. Faith in continually increased as we live in obedience to God thus further validating the claims of scripture to our conscience.

    Of course you don't. They are wrong and no Spirit comes into their life to give them the peace and understanding like he does for us.
     
    #26 William C, Mar 28, 2003
  7. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    It takes a "reasoning" kind of faith to believe the history books that say Columbus was the first European to discover America. You collect historical data, weigh it, and if it is reasonable, you believe it's true. Then along comes some other information that contradicts the history, and you have to deal with that. That's also part of the reasoning process.

    But it is all based on the natural. People do build boats. They sail seas. They discover things. They record their history. Others witnessed it. None of it challenges our perceptions of reality today.

    I'll tell you what DOES challenge our perception of reality today: That some "Guy" provided salvation for the whole world by hanging on a tree. And some people claim this "Guy" was born supernaturally from a virgin, and did things like manipulate the weather by saying "Peace, be still". And he yelled at a smelly dead guy in a cave, who then walked out of the cave alive. None of that is "reasonable" from a human perspective.

    People who do not have a humanistic ax to grind can easily see the difference.

    I do now. But I didn't have a clue what kind of historical support there was when I first believed. And at that time, I was a hard-core anti-Christian naturalist atheist, and never would have accepted the information at face value.

    Buddhism is not very wacky. Except for Christianity, you have to start devling in to the bizarre cults to get to a point where things extend beyond the reach of common reason. You know -- stuff like Heaven's Gate, satanism, evolution, or the belief that the apostles are saved differently than the rest of us. ;)
     
    #27 npetreley, Mar 28, 2003
  8. William C

    William C New Member

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    It takes a "reasoning" kind of faith to believe the history books </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, the REASONING type of faith as opposed to the faith that leaves all reasoning at the door.

    Why does God call us to reason with him, if he expects us to leave our minds on the shelf? Why does the scripture appeal to evidence of prophecies and the like to prove Jesus' claims to be the messiah. Why does Luke speak of the apostles seeking to persuade people to believe through reasonable arguments and presentations of evidence throughout the book of Acts?

    Human reason is called for but your system doesn't really allow for it.

    Don't you see that Christ's, virgin birth, calming the storm, raising Lazuras and the like are not meant to cause people to doubt Christ's testimony because of their absurdity, but quite the opposite, it was to show that He truly was the messiah. The evidence of the text and the human witnesses (like the ones you spoke of for Columbus) give crediablity to the claims of Christ.

    BTW, what is the purpose of miraclous signs in Calvinism? If people believe through the effectual inward working of the Spirit what role did the signs and wonders play in the speading of the gospel? What was there purpose?

    Nice to see you back Mumbo, have you seen Jumbo lately? [​IMG]

    You would have never "accepted" the information? OR You would have never "understood" the information?

    As an atheist did you just not understand the gospel? Or did you understand it alright but just not want to accept it?


    Ha Ha. The point is people can believe whatever they want to believe no matter how "unreasonable" someone outside that viewpoint may percieve it to be. I was raised hearing the gospel as truth; therefore, to me it was very reasonable. Now, for someone who didn't hear the message until they were older I'm sure it did seem unreasonable at first hearing, but that is exactly why God calls people to reason with Him and look at the evidence of the scripture and history. Its also why He sends messengers to persuade people with reasonable arguements supported by reasonable evidence.
     
    #28 William C, Mar 28, 2003
  9. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    One could be hardened from rejecting many opportunities in the past, where the other could have been struggling with it, and he came to the place where it finally dawned on him. Very few in this culture where Christianity is well known come to such quick decisions either way. There are factors other than God just chose one and passed over the other.
     
    #29 Eric B, Mar 29, 2003
  10. William C

    William C New Member

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    One could be hardened from rejecting many opportunities in the past, where the other could have been struggling with it, and he came to the place where it finally dawned on him. Very few in this culture where Christianity is well known come to such quick decisions either way. There are factors other than God just chose one and passed over the other. </font>[/QUOTE]That's right Eric, in fact scripture gives us some examples of what hinderances might "hardened" a heart toward the truth of the scripture.

    Jesus says its very difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven. Why? If all the elect are effectually called why would it be more difficult for God to effectually call a wealthy man? The scripture tells us why: "You cannot serve both God and money."

    Many people have hardened themselves in their sin to the point that seeing, hearing, understanding and turning to God for healing is very difficult. (It's only impossible if God hardens them)

    Why do you think most people who come to Christ do so before the age of 18? They are not as set in their ways and hardened by sin.

    Why does Christ say that we must become like Children to enter the Kingdom? Aren't they born totally depraved and unable to see, hear and understand? Apparently Christ doesn't think so.
     
    #30 William C, Mar 29, 2003
  11. William C

    William C New Member

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    Eric, does no one wish to respond to these arguments? :confused: [​IMG]
     
    #31 William C, Apr 1, 2003
  12. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    More arguing from logical fallacies.

    First, you base your argument on a (laughable) non-sequitur. "If there is an effectual calling, it follows that the experience of being converted should not be perceived as being difficult."

    Arguing from ignorance. You have never demonstrated from scripture that hardening and total depravity are the same thing, yet now you have further qualified this unproven principle by saying it only happens when God hardens.

    No data. How do you know most people come to Christ before age 18? How do you know what the percent of genuine conversions are among those?

    Then, without any data to support your assumption, you claim to know the causality involved (they are not hardened). So you have data that comes only from your imagination explained only by your imagination. Nothing in the above even comes close to the land of reality.
     
    #32 npetreley, Apr 1, 2003
  13. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Brother Bill,

    Reading the posts of late in this thread strengthens my belief that your position is incorrect.

    The arguments you offer would be pleasing to Mohammed.

    Praying for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit that your doubtful disputations would soon cease to plague your peace in God.

    God Bless.

    bro. Dallas
     
    #33 Frogman, Apr 1, 2003
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