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Believing a Lie
- Thread starter Sgt. Fury
- Start date
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: I would, practically speaking, think that would be to your favor in more ways than one. :laugh:
Thank you Brother. Considering the noise pollution... and other pollution, it is a blessing to see somone else tending to my Father's cattle. :laugh:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Nazaroo: What matters is, are you keeping your vow of holiness, by diligently following the rules?
No grapejuice, vineyard products etc. No wine. No mixed drinks. NO DRUGS.
Don't go near any dead bodies.
Don't defile yourself, even for your own mother.
End of story. Thats the vow. There is no other.
HP: Now I can see how one would need to abstain from all things they see as sin to be holy, such as, in my case, mixed drinks, ( I said in ‘MY’ case) but are you saying that it is a sin to drink grape juice, take needed medicine, or go near a dead body? What do these things have to do with being holy before God in our dispensation? Can you site any NT passage that would indicate that any of these things have anything to do with being holy?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Jesus did not take a Nazarite vow. He only vowed not to drink of the fruit of the vine. There was no other vow associated with the Nazarite vow.
Also, Jesus did go near dead bodies. As a matter of fact, in His death, He released many who were in the chains of death.
Also, Jesus did go near dead bodies. As a matter of fact, in His death, He released many who were in the chains of death.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Joe: if you want to take a Nazarite vow, I see nothing wrong with it. Makes no difference anyway.
HP: Let me ask you. According to Scripture is it wrong to take a vow you cannot keep or fulfill?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: Let me ask you. According to Scripture is it wrong to take a vow you cannot keep or fulfill?
Deuteronomy 23:21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.
Yup. The vow made is to be kept. If one cannot keep it, it is sin.
firstly, how do nazarite vows pertain to believing a lie? the OP.
secondly, how do any of us know the particular vow taken by Nazaroo, and further, which of us know he is not keeping it?
Even by the Grace of God.
Nazaroo has stated his position, his reasoning, now we could pray for his success according to the purpose of God in working in Nazaroo to both vow his vow and to succeed in that.
The question I would ask is why did Paul take a vow? Did he not say it is good to be established in Grace?
bro. Dallas:wavey:
secondly, how do any of us know the particular vow taken by Nazaroo, and further, which of us know he is not keeping it?
Even by the Grace of God.
Nazaroo has stated his position, his reasoning, now we could pray for his success according to the purpose of God in working in Nazaroo to both vow his vow and to succeed in that.
The question I would ask is why did Paul take a vow? Did he not say it is good to be established in Grace?
bro. Dallas:wavey:
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: Now I can see how one would need to abstain from all things they see as sin to be holy, such as, in my case, mixed drinks, ( I said in ‘MY’ case) but are you saying that it is a sin to drink grape juice, take needed medicine, or go near a dead body? What do these things have to do with being holy before God in our dispensation? Can you site any NT passage that would indicate that any of these things have anything to do with being holy?
Book of Acts 21:17-27: Paul and four other Jewish Christians take their Nazarite vows in the Temple.
There is no other vow for ordinary Israelites to purify themselves in the Torah, and Paul would not adopt any other later practice or tradition not founded on the Torah.
In fact, in my King James Version (Zondervan centercolumn reference), Numbers 6:13 is cited in the margin twice, for verse 21:24,26.
Peace,
Nazaroo
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Frogman said:Fellas,
Nazaroo has said he did not think anyone is or ever has been able to fulfill the Nazarite vow(s). This admission does not mean he is not earnest in his efforts.
Nazaroo, the Nazarite vow(s) will be viewed as a legalistic position by many on this board. This does not hurt your degree of earnestness, please understand.
Both sides of the question need to exercise more grace in disagreement. Do not be so easily offended, and especially do not be so quick to use offensive language.
bro. Dallas:wavey:
Thanks for the reminder Frogman :1_grouphug:
Frogman said:firstly, how do nazarite vows pertain to believing a lie? the OP.
secondly, how do any of us know the particular vow taken by Nazaroo, and further, which of us know he is not keeping it?
Even by the Grace of God.
Nazaroo has stated his position, his reasoning, now we could pray for his success according to the purpose of God in working in Nazaroo to both vow his vow and to succeed in that.
Thank you. Your sincerity is evident. By their fruits ye shall know them.
All is by the grace of God. I cannot deny that.
The question I would ask is why did Paul take a vow? Did he not say it is good to be established in Grace?
bro. Dallas:wavey:
This is a good question.
I would respond with Paul's own words on several occasions:
"The law (torah) is good, IF used lawfully."
From this I would reason that the law CAN be applied with good result if done with compassion and justice, and impartiality.
"The law is our schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ."
From this I would reason that the law has a purpose, and can benefit us if we study it diligently, with the same open mind that the Bereans applied (Acts 17:11)
The reason for Paul's action in Acts 21 seems plainly to be to testify openly before Israel that he is NOT perverting the Law (torah) or teaching Jews to disobey God's Law, and he does this by voluntarily carrying out of his own free will the Nazarite Vow.
As we mentioned before, the Nazarite Vow is the ONLY voluntary, optional Law in the whole Old Testament. But with it Paul could show that he was not just doing what he HAD to do, or was being compelled to do because he was being watched.
It showed that Paul truly delighted in the Law of the LORD, and was willing to go the extra mile.
Peace,
Nazaroo
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Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Let me ask you. According to Scripture is it wrong to take a vow you cannot keep or fulfill?
Yes. But this is not a Nazarite Vow. As established, this is an impossibility in this day and age.
He has modeled his own vow to God after the Nazarite Vow.
Whatever level of commitment to the "model" of the Nazarite Vow, as long as it's kept, he is fulfilling the vow he made to God. Personally I see nothing to gain from the vow, or to loose, but the Lord reads our hearts, so who knows.
Num 30:1-2 Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This [is] the thing which the LORD hath commanded. If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
The law is not our schoolmaster. Once we come to faith, we are no longer under that schoolmaster.
Why put oneself under the yoke of bondage found in the Law?
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Why put oneself under the yoke of bondage found in the Law?
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Brother Dallas: firstly, how do nazarite vows pertain to believing a lie? the OP.
HP: Let me ask you. If one believes that not eating grapes or not touching or coming near a dead body contributes to their holiness, are they believing a lie? I am simply asking.
BD: secondly, how do any of us know the particular vow taken by Nazaroo, and further, which of us know he is not keeping it?
HP: I thought it was stated by his own admission that he has not kept the vows nor knows any that have. Is that not correct? If so it is by Nazaroo’s own confession that we know, at least in his case that he is not keeping it. Besides, where is the evidence that you can keep the vow without fulfilling the commands of the vow I posted in the Scriptures concerning it? Again it would appear that just taking a Nazarite vow does not fulfill the vow or make the vow credible.
HP: How can I pray for the success of something he has claimed already, AS I UNDERSTAND HIM, to be a failure not only in his life but in all he has known to take like vows? How can I pray for success in holiness in his life by the means he is obviously trying to utilize, when Scripture gives us no clue as to it’s least association to holiness, nor does it encourage us as believers in any way to take such vows?
BD: Nazaroo has stated his position, his reasoning, now we could pray for his success according to the purpose of God in working in Nazaroo to both vow his vow and to succeed in that.
BD: The question I would ask is why did Paul take a vow?
HP: We might have to wait and ask him.
BD: Did he not say it is good to be established in Grace?
HP: Utilizing grace does not mean that we would never admonish another in the truth concerning holiness as long as it is done in love, would it?
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
The law is not our schoolmaster. Once we come to faith, we are no longer under that schoolmaster.
Why put oneself under the yoke of bondage found in the Law?
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Why put oneself under the yoke of bondage found in the Law?
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
standingfirminChrist said:The law is not our schoolmaster. Once we come to faith, we are no longer under that schoolmaster.
Why put oneself under the yoke of bondage found in the Law?
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Imo, this doesn't qualify as under the yoke of bondage found in the Law. This is a voluntary vow, as the Nazarite vow was. It's a vow modeled after the Nazarite Vow, it is not the Nazarite Vow.
Why does everyone keep calling it that?
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
If it is not the Nazarite vow, then he is not a Nazarite... despite his claim to be one.
Also, I posted that post that the Law was our schoolmaster in contrast to his unbiblical statement that the law is our schoolmaster.
Also, I posted that post that the Law was our schoolmaster in contrast to his unbiblical statement that the law is our schoolmaster.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Joe: Imo, this doesn't qualify as the Law. This is a voluntary vow, always has been. It's a vow modeled after the Nazarite Vow, it is not the Nazarite Vow.
HP: If it is not a Nazarite vow, is one believing a lie to think that they are a Nazarite or that they have taken a Nazarite vow? Is it believing a lie to think that any such vow contributes to his holiness when by his own admission, as I understand him, states that he has not kept it anyway?
:thumbs: You got it!standingfirminChrist said:If it is not the Nazarite vow, then he is not a Nazarite... despite his claim to be one.
Also, I posted that post that the Law was our schoolmaster in contrast to his unbiblical statement that the law is our schoolmaster.
sorry, I missed that correlation
Brethren,
I think we should get back on topic. I don't see this discussion on the OP topic.
We can continue this discussion under another thread for anyone that wishes to pursue it.
In the meantime, note, I agree, we are no longer under the Law as a schoolmaster having already come to Christ in faith. Nevertheless, we can and I think should still look back to the law to learn of Christ, and especially that of his fulfillment in our stead.
Having said that I also would like to point to Paul's writing:
For though I might be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Now, having pointed us to that there are some things Paul states in 1 Cor. 8 that may be of use to us.
Can anyone of us live, experience and project a life of holiness to the degree that we should? No. Should we not make such an attempt simply because we cannot acheive success, even with the help and Grace of God? No.
bro. Dallas:wavey:
I think we should get back on topic. I don't see this discussion on the OP topic.
We can continue this discussion under another thread for anyone that wishes to pursue it.
In the meantime, note, I agree, we are no longer under the Law as a schoolmaster having already come to Christ in faith. Nevertheless, we can and I think should still look back to the law to learn of Christ, and especially that of his fulfillment in our stead.
Having said that I also would like to point to Paul's writing:
For though I might be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Now, having pointed us to that there are some things Paul states in 1 Cor. 8 that may be of use to us.
Can anyone of us live, experience and project a life of holiness to the degree that we should? No. Should we not make such an attempt simply because we cannot acheive success, even with the help and Grace of God? No.
bro. Dallas:wavey:
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: If it is not a Nazarite vow, is one believing a lie to think that they are a Nazarite or that they have taken a Nazarite vow? Is it believing a lie to think that any such vow contributes to his holiness when by his own admission, as I understand him, states that he has not kept it anyway?
Lie- A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
1.Well.... to call it believing in a lie might be a stretch, but by calling himself a Nazarite, he is believing in something which is false.
2. I don't understand the goal of his vow to be to contribue to his holiness, unless I missed something.
3. Whatever the specifics are of the vow to God, from what I understand, he has kept them.