"Believing is the consequence of the new birth"

[KenH]

John 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"Men that believe in Jesus Christ, to the effectual receiving of Jesus Christ, they are born to it. He does not say they shall be born to it, but they are born to it--born of God unto God and the things of God, before he receives God to eternal salvation. ‘Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.’ Now, unless he be born of God, he cannot see it: suppose the kingdom of God be what it will, he cannot see it before he be begotten of God. Suppose it be the gospel, he cannot see it before he be brought into a state of regeneration. Believing is the consequence of the new birth; ‘not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God."

- from Mr. Bunyan's Last Sermon, preached on August 19, 1688, preached at Mr. Gramman's meeting-house in London

John Bunyan preached this sermon just 12 days before he died. The entire, rather brief, sermon can be found here: Bunyan's Last Sermon - Chapel Library

 

[Revmitchell]

The problem with reformed theology is they either ignore context, or fail to get context correct. I doubt anyone who is reformed even knows why John wrote this passage.

He was writing to the Jews who thought that salvation came from being a Jew (it was a birthright) and by keeping the OT law. Hence verse 13. With that context in mind that passage says nothing about having to be saved to believe. In fact no scripture anywhere does. It is only imposed on scripture by eisegesis.

 

[KenH]

The problem with reformed theology is they either ignore context, or fail to get context correct.

The problem with so called free-will theology is that they ignore that a dead man(remember Lazarus? - John chapter 11)) can do nothing to bring himself to life. It is a thoroughly false teaching that a person "dead in trespasses and sins"(Ephesians 2:1) can effect his own "spiritual resurrection" from the spiritual death that Adam and his descendants suffered in the Garden of Eden. Now, they sometimes rail against the analogy that is used in The Scriptures and will say that Adam and his descendants did not die spiritually, that they just bruised their shin or maybe stubbed their toe or maybe just broke their arm. However, that is not what The Scriptures teach, regardless of their protestations otherwise. If salvation for those whom God chose as His elect before the world began is dependent in any way, even a tiny, tiny little smidgen of it, upon something done, said, or even thought by spiritually dead persons, then no human being would be saved. Period. Those who believe that they contribute anything at all by their corrupt free will(which is only free in the sense that the unregenerated can follow their fleshly nature) to their salvation should place themselves under solid gospel teaching in hopes that they may be among God's elect and that His amazing grace will extend to them, to the praise of God's glory and for His sake(Isaiah 43:25).

 

[Revmitchell]

The problem with so called free-will theology is that they ignore that a dead man(remember Lazarus? - John chapter 11)) can do nothing to bring himself to life. It is a thoroughly false teaching that a person "dead in trespasses and sins"(Ephesians 2:1) can effect his own "spiritual resurrection" from the spiritual death that Adam and his descendants suffered in the Garden of Eden. Now, they sometimes rail against the analogy that is used in The Scriptures and will say that Adam and his descendants did not die spiritually, that they just bruised their shin or maybe stubbed their toe or maybe just broke their arm. However, that is not what The Scriptures teach, regardless of their protestations otherwise. If salvation for those whom God chose as His elect before the world began is dependent in any way, even a tiny, tiny little smidgen of it, upon something done, said, or even thought by spiritually dead persons, then no human being would be saved. Period. Those who believe that they contribute anything at all by their corrupt free will(which is only free in the sense that the unregenerated can follow their fleshly nature) to their salvation should place themselves under solid gospel teaching in hopes that they may be among God's elect and that His amazing grace will extend to them, to the praise of God's glory and for His sake(Isaiah 43:25).

The problem with reformed theology is that it takes the analogy of dead too far. A dead man can neither respond to the gospel nor reject it.

 

[KenH]

The problem with reformed theology is that it takes the analogy of dead too far. A dead man can neither respond to the gospel nor reject it.

Being dead, there is no way to respond in a positive manner to the gospel. A dead physical corpse will refuse a cold drink of water as there is nothing it can do but refuse it, just as those spiritually dead can do nothing other than to refuse the gospel of Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

Being dead, there is no way to respond in a positive manner to the gospel. A dead physical corpse will refuse a cold drink of water as there is nothing it can do but refuse it.

A dead man can neither respond positively nor refuse it therefore your understanding of that analogy is in error.

 

[KenH]

A dead man can neither respond positively nor refuse it therefore your understanding of that analogy is in error.

It is the false gospel of free-will theology that you and others espouse that is in error.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is the false gospel of free-will theology that you and others espouse that is in error.

Is that all you have? You cannot defend your position? Why then do you post in a debate forum?

 

[KenH]

A dead man can neither respond positively nor refuse it therefore your understanding of that analogy is in error.

"he cried with a loud voice; not on account of the dead, but for the sake of those around him, that all might hear and observe; and chiefly to show his majesty, power and authority, and that what he did was open and above board, and not done by any secret, superstitious, and magical whisper; and as an emblem of the voice and power of his Gospel in quickening dead sinners"

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on John 11:43

 

[Revmitchell]

"he cried with a loud voice; not on account of the dead, but for the sake of those around him, that all might hear and observe; and chiefly to show his majesty, power and authority, and that what he did was open and above board, and not done by any secret, superstitious, and magical whisper; and as an emblem of the voice and power of his Gospel in quickening dead sinners"

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on John 11:43

Somehow you think that because He did it outloud that proves it is an example of salvation. It does not

 

[canadyjd]

The problem with reformed theology is….. that passage says nothing about having to be saved to believe. In fact no scripture anywhere does. It is only imposed on scripture by eisegesis.

The problem with your response is that you are arguing against something that was never stated.

He did not say anything about “having to be saved to believe”

He specifically says a person cannot understand (or see) the gospel unless they are first born again of God.

You equate being “born again” or regenerated as equaling salvation. Most reformed folks I talk to believe regeneration always leads to salvation by faith in Jesus and His gospel.

It is God’s intervention, quickening, the person that allows them to respond in faith unto salvation.

I know we have talked about this before and I know you disagree, but I wish you wouldn’t misrepresent the reformed position.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

The problem with your response is that you are arguing against something that was never stated.

He did not say anything about “having to be saved to believe”

He specifically says a person cannot understand (or see) the gospel unless they are first born again of God.

You equate being “born again” or regenerated as equaling salvation. Most reformed folks I talk to believe regeneration always leads to salvation by faith in Jesus and His gospel.

It is God’s intervention, quickening, the person that allows them to respond in faith unto salvation.

I know we have talked about this before and I know you disagree, but I wish you wouldn’t misrepresent the reformed position.

peace to you

Well the reformed position is not monolithic on that. I have no idea who is what flavor of reformed and i cant caveate every post. I havent misrepresented anything.

 

[canadyjd]

Well the reformed position is not monolithic on that. I have no idea who is what flavor of reformed and i cant caveate every post. I havent misrepresented anything.

Brother, you misrepresented the quote from Mr. Bunyan’s sermon in the OP when you stated the passage (John 1:13) he talked about says nothing about “being saved before you believe.”

Mr. Bunyan didn’t say that. KenH didn’t say that.

Peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

Brother, you misrepresented the quote from Mr. Bunyan’s sermon in the OP when you stated the passage (John 1:13) he talked about says nothing about “being saved before you believe.”

Mr. Bunyan didn’t say that. KenH didn’t say that.

Peace to you

no i didn't he said born before believed hence my statement was correct

 

[percho]

upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages, Titus 1:2
for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, <?When did that take place?) that to the whole He might do kindness. Rom 11:32

because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; Rom 5:12
From 1 Cor 15:21 for since through man, the death,
From 1 Cor 15:22 for even as in Adam all die,


What do all of you believe was the plan, before times of ages?

Did Adam function according to plan? Was Adam created, called if you will, according to purpose?

What purpose?

And this is the message that we have heard from Him, and announce to you, that God is light, and darkness in Him is not at all; 1 John 1:5
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness on the face of the deep, From Gen 1:2
because the God, the one saying, Out of darkness light to shine, From 2 Cor 4:6

What darkness?

Did something go wrong or is the plan being followed to a T?

 

[KenH]

no i didn't he said born before believed hence my statement was correct

Once God chose His elect before the world began, it was a done deal that they would all be saved. God sent His Son into the world, imputed His elect's sins to His Son and He paid the penalty for them on the cross and God imputed His Son's perfect righteousness in His perfect obedience to His elect. Folks argue over such issues as when does justification occur and how soon after being regenerated is an elect person granted faith and repentance of dead works. God chose His elect before the world began and the rest takes place in time, as we creatures of God's creation are time-bound people on this earth. However, every one of God's elect can rest assured that once God chose to save them before the world began, there has never been any possibility that they would not be saved in Christ. Their salvation is not in anything of themselves, not their faith, not their repentance, not their works; their salvation is wholly in Christ from first to last.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[KenH]

Did something go wrong or is the plan being followed to a T?

The plan of God always goes according to His purposes. Period. God is absolutely totally sovereign. Always has been, is now, always will be absolutely totally sovereign.

 

[Revmitchell]

Once God chose His elect before the world began, it was a done deal that they would all be saved. God sent His Son into the world, imputed His elect's sins to His Son and He paid the penalty for them on the cross and God imputed His Son's perfect righteousness in His perfect obedience to His elect. Folks argue over such issues as when does justification occur and how soon after being regenerated is an elect person granted faith and repentance of dead works. God chose His elect before the world began and the rest takes place in time, as we creatures of God's creation are time-bound people on this earth. However, every one of God's elect can rest assured that once God chose to save them before the world began, there has never been any possibility that they would not be saved in Christ. Their salvation is not in anything of themselves, not their faith, not their repentance, not their works; their salvation is wholly in Christ from first to last.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Salvific election is corporate and nothing you posted here says otherwise

 

[Silverhair]

Once God chose His elect before the world began, it was a done deal that they would all be saved. God sent His Son into the world, imputed His elect's sins to His Son and He paid the penalty for them on the cross and God imputed His Son's perfect righteousness in His perfect obedience to His elect. Folks argue over such issues as when does justification occur and how soon after being regenerated is an elect person granted faith and repentance of dead works. God chose His elect before the world began and the rest takes place in time, as we creatures of God's creation are time-bound people on this earth. However, every one of God's elect can rest assured that once God chose to save them before the world began, there has never been any possibility that they would not be saved in Christ. Their salvation is not in anything of themselves, not their faith, not their repentance, not their works; their salvation is wholly in Christ from first to last.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Jesus is the Elect One and we are only elect when we are in Him. We are in Him through faith Eph_1:13 and we stay in Him as long as we believe Col_1:21-23
Therefore, when the apostle writes, “just as he chose us,” this “us” does not refer to all men, but rather to all those who will through out history become “the elect” through faith in the Son.

 

[Silverhair]

The plan of God always goes according to His purposes. Period. God is absolutely totally sovereign. Always has been, is now, always will be absolutely totally sovereign.

Consider this,

1] those that are “in Christ” are saved

2] Calvinists think they were elect “in Christ” before the foundation of the world

3] If they were “in Christ” then they were saved before creation

4] The gospel is the power of God for salvation

5] Since they are already “elect” they do not need to trust the gospel message

6] According to Calvinism the non-elect can not believe the gospel so as to be saved

7] So the absolutely elect {Calvinist} must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him

8] So why the gospel?