"Believing is the consequence of the new birth"

[Martin Marprelate]

John 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
'Not of blood......' Being born into a Christian family can't help you.
'.....Nor of the will of the flesh.....' Your own fallen will can't help you.
'.....Nor of the will of [a] man......' It is not of the words of the preacher (save as they are used by God), nor the incantations of the priest, nor the ministrations of the social worker, nor the reasoning of a friend..........
'......But of God.' Of Him alone.

Is this a discouraging doctrine? Not at all! When all our pleading and reasoning with our loved ones has come to nothing, we need not despair. One door is still open to us and we can besiege heaven with our prayers, knowing that 'the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man [ie. one who God has justified] avails much.'

 

[37818]

Why, if belief, is preceded by regeneration do they need to be given permission to become children of God if they are already children of God? John 1:12, ". . . to them gave he authority to become the children of God, . . ."

 

[Revmitchell]

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

This verse is important in that is sets up the context for verse 13. His own meaning the jews.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

This verse sets up the order in which salvation occurs. Those that receive Him (comes first) He gave the right to become children of God. (Comes after receiving Him)


Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Not of blood = meaning not because they were Jews

nor of the will of the flesh = meaning those who rely on the OT law as many of the Jews did.

nor the will of man = meaning those who rely on a relationship with a patriarchal head.

You cannot ignore the context and then impose on scripture a new context based on a presuppositional doctrine not found in scripture.

Man's inability to earn his own salvation does not justify the false doctrine of total inability.

 

[KenH]

8] So why the gospel?

God is not bound by time. We mere creatures are time-bound on this earth. Thus while God is sovereign and has decreed and ordained all things that have ever and will ever take place, the elect are on this earth and thus God's work in them takes place in time - in going from being born dead in sin to being made alive in Christ.

Folks argue over such issues as when does justification occur and how soon after being regenerated is an elect person granted faith and repentance of dead works. God chose His elect before the world began and the rest takes place in time, as we creatures of God's creation are time-bound people on this earth. However, every one of God's elect can rest assured that once God chose to save them before the world began, there has never been any possibility that they would not be saved in Christ. Their salvation is not in anything of themselves, not their faith, not their repentance, not their works; their salvation is wholly in Christ from first to last.

 

[Silverhair]

God is not bound by time. We mere creatures are time-bound on this earth. Thus while God is sovereign and has decreed and ordained all things that have ever and will ever take place, the elect are on this earth and thus God's work in them takes place in time - in going from being born dead in sin to being made alive in Christ.

Folks argue over such issues as when does justification occur and how soon after being regenerated is an elect person granted faith and repentance of dead works. God chose His elect before the world began and the rest takes place in time, as we creatures of God's creation are time-bound people on this earth. However, every one of God's elect can rest assured that once God chose to save them before the world began, there has never been any possibility that they would not be saved in Christ. Their salvation is not in anything of themselves, not their faith, not their repentance, not their works; their salvation is wholly in Christ from first to last.

Christ Jesus is the Elect One and only those that are in Christ through faith are elect. You may argue over when one is regenerated but the bible does not. Those that hear and believe the gospel message are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. You want to put the cart before the horse.

Your whole comment is just one long list of bad theology and denial of scripture. But even in your errant views you make the occasional biblical comment. Now if you would just start trusting scripture rather that your philosophy.

 

[KenH]

Now if you would just start trusting scripture rather that your philosophy.

I trust God, not myself. If I trusted in myself, in my imperfect faith, or in my imperfect repentance from dead works, or in my imperfect daily walk in Christ, etc., then I would be in nothing but despair, always wondering if I had done enough, or hadn't sinned too much, or being concerned if God was going to judge me on a sliding scale of righteousness. The answers to those last three concerns are: I could never do enough; I sin every day as nothing I do measures up to the perfect righteousness of Christ; God does not judge based on a sliding scale of righteousness, He judges by the perfect righteousness of Christ and anyone who is saved has had their sins imputed(credited) to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness imputed(credited) to them.

 

[Van]

Yet another Falselogy thread, denying the 13 verses that teach God bestows His blessings including election, redemption and regeneration (rebirth) through or by way of our credited faith. Thus our faith precedes the bestowal of regeneration. Any claim otherwise is nonsense.

 

[Silverhair]

I trust God, not myself. If I trusted in myself, in my imperfect faith, or in my imperfect repentance from dead works, or in my imperfect daily walk in Christ, etc., then I would be in nothing but despair, always wondering if I had done enough, or hadn't sinned too much, or being concerned if God was going to judge me on a sliding scale of righteousness. The answers to those last three concerns are: I could never do enough; I sin every day as nothing I do measures up to the perfect righteousness of Christ; God does not judge based on a sliding scale of righteousness, He judges by the perfect righteousness of Christ and anyone who is saved has had their sins imputed(credited) to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness imputed(credited) to them.

Why should you worry about if you are good enough or if you have sinned too much. According to you you were chosen as one of the elect before the foundation of the world so all these petty things like sin and faith really have no bearing on your final destination do they.

But then again since you can only hope that you were one of those chosen elect, as even your faith had to be given to you, you can never be sure of what your final destination will be. You just have to hope that the faith was real and not just your wishful thinking.

 

[KenH]

you can never be sure of what your final destination will be

I am quite sure that I am safe in Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:33-39 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[canadyjd]

no i didn't he said born before believed hence my statement was correct

Again, he didn’t say “saved before belief”. He goes into detail describing his views. I think if you read the quote carefully, you would get a better understanding of his position, even as you disagree.

Essentially, being “born again”, or regenerated, does not equal salvation though it will always result in salvation.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, he didn’t say “saved before belief”. He goes into detail describing his views. I think if you read the quote carefully, you would get a better understanding of his position, even as you disagree.

Essentially, being “born again”, or regenerated, does not equal salvation though it will always result in salvation.

peace to you

See post # 12

 

[canadyjd]

See post # 12

Please observe the OP is about Bunyan’s last sermon. It is appropriate to actually read the post before offering comments about the post.

If your only desire to repeat old objections to other reformed folks views then you are missing an opportunity for dialog that may reveal some shared beliefs.

At a minimum, it would be respectful to read and comment on the sermon itself. What exactly about the sermon did you find objectionable?

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I am quite sure that I am safe in Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:33-39 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Actually you really can not know as by your own theology God determines all things. You even have to be given your faith. So for you to claim now that you actually believe is a farce. The best that you can do is say you hope you believe, that God really did give you real faith.

When you quote those verses it really is because you hope they are true for you. This is why Calvinism can not be true, as you claim one thing and have to hope for something else.

For us that do not hold to your Calvinist theology we can claim those verses and know that they are true for us.

 

[KenH]

For us that do not hold to your Calvinist theology we can claim those verses and know that they are true for us.

Actually, you free-willers can't know they are true for y'all as y'all don't know if y'all will keep on believing and being faithful for the remainder of your lives. It is a heinous flaw in Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian theological systems.

 

[KenH]

Actually you really can not know as by your own theology God determines all things. You even have to be given your faith. So for you to claim now that you actually believe is a farce. The best that you can do is say you hope you believe, that God really did give you real faith.

When you quote those verses it really is because you hope they are true for you.

Wow! Sir, the hubris you are showing is a sight to behold. Somehow you think you can reach into my brain and read my thoughts that even though I say with complete confidence in Christ Jesus, the Lord my Righteousness, that He has saved me and will usher me into His presence when my time on earth is through; that instead, you state with a great deal of hubris that no, you, KenH, do have not have complete confidence in Christ Jesus that He has saved you and will usher you into His presence when your time on earth is through. And evidently you reach that outrageous conclusion based on nothing more than my opposition to your free-willism, your belief that man contributes something in order to be saved, your belief that salvation is not 100% of God and based on nothing in or done or thought by the creature, your belief that man makes the choice as to whether he is saved and not God, your belief that ultimately your alleged sovereignty of man can override the sovereignty of Almighty God.

 

[percho]

Why should you worry about if you are good enough or if you have sinned too much. According to you you were chosen as one of the elect before the foundation of the world so all these petty things like sin and faith really have no bearing on your final destination do they.

But then again since you can only hope that you were one of those chosen elect, as even your faith had to be given to you, you can never be sure of what your final destination will be. You just have to hope that the faith was real and not just your wishful thinking.

The following verse is speaking of those on whom the Holy Spirit has abundantly poured out upon.

And they are not yet inheritors but yet still heirs of hope.

that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during. Titus 3:7

Here is what the Holy Spirit says through Paul in Romans concerning hope.

8:24,25 for in(to) hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for
and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect

 

[Silverhair]

Wow! Sir, the hubris you are showing is a sight to behold. Somehow you think you can reach into my brain and read my thoughts that even though I say with complete confidence in Christ Jesus, the Lord my Righteousness, that He has saved me and will usher me into His presence when my time on earth is through; that instead, you state with a great deal of hubris that no, you, KenH, do have not have complete confidence in Christ Jesus that He has saved you and will usher you into His presence when your time on earth is through. And evidently you reach that outrageous conclusion based on nothing more than my opposition to your free-willism, your belief that man contributes something in order to be saved, your belief that salvation is not 100% of God and based on nothing in or done or thought by the creature, your belief that man makes the choice as to whether he is saved and not God, your belief that ultimately your alleged sovereignty of man can override the sovereignty of Almighty God.

Actually as you are a Calvinist I am just saying what your theology says about your salvation. Calvinist say that God saves them before they have any faith and then He gives them faith. Also as one who says God has determined all things, He may heave determined that you think you are saved but in reality your not. That is the reality of your theology. You have to hope that God is not playing a trick on you just as J Calvin said.

So while you may not like what I posted it is the reality of your theology so if you have a problem with it then change your view.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, he didn’t say “saved before belief”. He goes into detail describing his views. I think if you read the quote carefully, you would get a better understanding of his position, even as you disagree.

Essentially, being “born again”, or regenerated, does not equal salvation though it will always result in salvation.

peace to you

To be born, or born again, is to be regenerated and renewed; to receive spiritual life. Webster

 

[Silverhair]

Actually, you free-willers can't know they are true for y'all as y'all don't know if y'all will keep on believing and being faithful for the remainder of your lives. It is a heinous flaw in Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian theological systems.

Good thing I am not one of those Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian folks. Well see that is the difference right there is it not. As one that actually believes what the bible says I can trust that the God that I worship will keep me and will correct me when I do sin. Just as the bible tells us, as long as we keep believing. If one no longer trusted in Christ Jesus why would that one want to be with Him in heaven. But those that do continue to believe will be with Him because they want to be, not because they were dragged there as one Calvinist keeps saying.

 

[Silverhair]

The following verse is speaking of those on whom the Holy Spirit has abundantly poured out upon.

And they are not yet inheritors but yet still heirs of hope.

that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during. Titus 3:7

Here is what the Holy Spirit says through Paul in Romans concerning hope.

8:24,25 for in(to) hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for
and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect

That may be so but for the Calvinist it does not matter does it. Remember your all supposed to be saved before the foundation of the world. Your version of God determined that, or so you hope.

Quite frankly many Calvinists I have read and heard come across as being very confused. They can't make up their minds are they saved or not.