Talking to a worker aquaintance who happens to be skeptical---his question to me is "how much of a sacrifice did Jesus really make?" His reasoning behind the statement was that since God/Jesus knows all that will/would happen---then Jesus obviously knew that by dying on the cross, it wouldn't be permanent since he would be resurrected. His logic(worker) being that if you know that you are going to be resurrected after death then what kind of sacrifice did he really make. He says that Abraham was willing to make more of a sacrifice since he had no idea that God would stop him or if he did go through that his son would be resurrected. Just looking for some different thoughts on the best way to respond to his question.:jesus:
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Best answer to reply?
- Thread starter moscott
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Nail him to a cross and then ask him how big a sacrifice it was!
LOL---I think he realizes the physical pain that was involved in the crucifixtion, but his point was alot have people have endured painful deaths(with no chance of resurection) in the name of their religion. His point being that people have made more of a sacrifice then Jesus since he knew he would rise again.
I would honestly focus on the wrath in which Jesus took for the believers. Jesus not only died on a cross which many saw, but he also took on the countless sins of all of those who are children of God. Jesus' sacrifice was the greatest of all time and we cant begin to imagine what he went through when he atoned for our sins. Yeah it is true many were killed on the cross and people only pay for there own sins in hell, but Jesus payed for "a great multitude that no one could number"
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The sacrifice that Jesus Christ made was that the Incarnate God, perfectly righteous in a way we cannot comprehend, took upon himself the sins of His people. 2 Corinthians 2:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Also if you check Hebrews 11:19 regarding Abraham and Isaac you will read: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead;
Tom Butler
New Member
It's not necessary for us to be able to come up with an answer to the skeptic's question. We have come to believe that God's word is true, and that God has declared himself satisfied with Jesus' sacrifice.
That may not satisfy the skeptic, but we have staked our entire spiritual future on the firm belief that God's word is true and the sacrifice is sufficient.
If it is not true, then neither we nor the skeptic have any hope at all.
That may not satisfy the skeptic, but we have staked our entire spiritual future on the firm belief that God's word is true and the sacrifice is sufficient.
If it is not true, then neither we nor the skeptic have any hope at all.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Others have already mentioned the physical pain, humilation, torture of the crucifixion... not to mention the scourging, crown of thorns, beatings, slapping, being spit on ect.
But the sacrifice began long before the crucifixion, when God, Creator of the universe, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Perfection in every way.....
....He took on flesh... made Himself a "little lower than the angels", humbled Himself from His glory within the GodHead, to make that perfect sacrifice.
If the sacrifice of Jesus was an example for others to follow, your friend may have a point. But the sacrifice of Christ accomplished much more than a mere example for others to follow....
He loved us when we hated Him. He called to us while we were His enemies. He suffered and died for us while we despised His name and rebelled against Him. He made the ultimate sacrifice, the sacrifice par excellence, the sacrifice which none other could make... and it was for God's glory and our benefit...
Hebrews 10:12 "but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time sat down at the right hand of God"
v.14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."
The sacrifice of Christ accomplished redemption for the children of God, those who are called according to His purpose, those who are sanctified through His blood by the power of Holy Spirit.
Those without the Spirit will never understand how much of a sacrifice Christ really made.
peace to you
raying:
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Not just physically dibilating, death bringing pain from the scourging, the gouging, the ripping of flesh, the beating, and the whipping. Then add the suffocation across 3 hours. Add having railroad tie think nails driven into the skin. Add the excruciating pain of dehydrating in the sun.
Then consider the deep emotional and spiritual pain that we can't even fathom. The moment of separation in the Trinity. The taking on of sin into a life that never knew sin.
I think you're friend is being both a) dramatic and b) obstinent. Sooner or later our mutual humanity enjoins us to compassionately consider the reality of the cost of Cross.
If people can't bring themselves to that they deserve our love but don't deserve our company. At some point you have to present truth as truth, honestly and humbly, and then leave it where it lays.
If a person can't recongize the cost, they aren't being authentic with you and are wasting your time. Honest questions are one thing. Being a ridiculous person is another.
Then consider the deep emotional and spiritual pain that we can't even fathom. The moment of separation in the Trinity. The taking on of sin into a life that never knew sin.
I think you're friend is being both a) dramatic and b) obstinent. Sooner or later our mutual humanity enjoins us to compassionately consider the reality of the cost of Cross.
If people can't bring themselves to that they deserve our love but don't deserve our company. At some point you have to present truth as truth, honestly and humbly, and then leave it where it lays.
If a person can't recongize the cost, they aren't being authentic with you and are wasting your time. Honest questions are one thing. Being a ridiculous person is another.
I understand exactly what you are all saying. I had another conversation with him today and relayed the sentiments passed on by you. His reply, paraphrasing, was along the lines of-----I completely understand the physical and mental anguish that Jesus went thru. However, as an example of the man recently tortured, raped and murdered for being a Christian the suffering was equally horrid. He reasoned that if 2 people are in an identical position of jumping in front of a gun being fired at a loved 1--and only 1 of the 2 men know that the gun is filled with blanks and not bullets----then didn't the person who jumped in front of the gunshot(not knowing) it was filled with blanks actually exhibit more of a sacrifice.
Another words in his way of thinking, Jesus knew despite the physical and mental torture that he would rise again immediatley----this other man endured similar physical and mental torture knowing he would never rise again(physically) and had to rely totally on faith in his death. So he believes that the 2nd man actually exhibited a greater sacrifice.
Another words in his way of thinking, Jesus knew despite the physical and mental torture that he would rise again immediatley----this other man endured similar physical and mental torture knowing he would never rise again(physically) and had to rely totally on faith in his death. So he believes that the 2nd man actually exhibited a greater sacrifice.
Compared to what?
W/out knowing the whole story behind the sacrifice of Christ, how is it even remotely possible for anyone to claim any comparison that holds any logic whatsoever?
To use a crude analogy, is it more of a sacrifice for me to give $1000 to a local charity, or for your friend to loan $100 to a friend for 6 months?
Since I don't know his circumstances, nor he mine, there is no valid way to draw a conclusion.
If he has an income of $50k/yr, a sickly wife, 4 kids, and her mother is living with them, then that $100 just may not be available at all w/out cutting back on food for several weeks.
If I have an income of $200k /yr, just me and good health with routine expenses otherwise, then that $1000 will never be missed.
Mar 12:41-44 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Before judgment is made, we need to know "the rest of the story"!
Marcia
Active Member
But no one, no matter how terribly they died, has suffered the wrath of God for mens' sins! We can't even comprehend that. Maybe you should make that point.
Since your friend is not a believer, he probably does not have a good understanding of a righteous God or His wrath on sin, and what that means. Nevertheless, I would make the above point.
As others have alluded to, I don't think this person is seeing Christ's death for what it was. Many a Christian went to their deaths on a cross singing and probably actually suffered worse physically than Christ did on the cross. When Christ was sweating drops of blood while in the garden, he wasn't anguishing over the physical suffering of some Roman cross. Instead, he was anguishing over the thought of separation from His Father and the the wrath of His Father being poured out on Him. It wasn't the Roman's wrath that was tough. It was the wrath of God! It was being poured out because of MY sin. He did this for those who were His enemies!!! He was crushed by the Father and it PLEASED the Father to do so.
Another point is the "why" and the "for who". Here was the perfect Son of God, who had never sinned, being punished for every sin ever committed. His death had to satisfy the Father's wrath for all sin. I know there is some song that mentions, "In three hours, Christ suffered more than every sinner ever would in hell".
This is the gospel, and I'm so thankful just to be reminded of it by writing this.
Another point is the "why" and the "for who". Here was the perfect Son of God, who had never sinned, being punished for every sin ever committed. His death had to satisfy the Father's wrath for all sin. I know there is some song that mentions, "In three hours, Christ suffered more than every sinner ever would in hell".
This is the gospel, and I'm so thankful just to be reminded of it by writing this.
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I think the problem is that an unbeliever can never understand the sacrifice of Christ until he sees the utter sinfulness of himself. That is where you need to start.
Also:
Romans 5
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
It wasn't just about the physical suffering of Christ, but the love He has toward us who are so utterly undeserving of His grace. What kind of person gives His very life for people who hate Him? Only God has that kind of love for His creation.
Also:
Romans 5
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
It wasn't just about the physical suffering of Christ, but the love He has toward us who are so utterly undeserving of His grace. What kind of person gives His very life for people who hate Him? Only God has that kind of love for His creation.
I agree 100%.