Bethany Divinity College and Seminary

[Harring]

I, too, am considering a nontraditional seminary. Why would Plain Old Bill and TomVols endorse Columbia Evangelical Seminary but not Covington Theological Seminary? Neither are accredited. Also, where would you put Luther Rice University in that mix since they are TRACS accredited but not ATS accredited? Thanks for your input!

I must say that there are some interesting minds on this forum. I appreciate the discussions as well as the philosophy given by each individual, for it may be that one enlightens the other. I suppose that was the same as existed in Paul's day on Mars Hill.

I would like to inject a thought or a bit of information I picked up on the internet concerning Columbia Evangelical Seminary. While it appears that CES is being recommended and there are those enjoying putting BDC down, I would like to share a site for you to visit: http://www.shields-research.org/Novak/james.htm

If the facts are true, and apparently they are, you will find CES operating out of a two room office, upstairs over a store. At least I found BDC in Dothan with an actual campus consisting of an administration building, classrooms, a library, auditorium that seats 450 people, a fellowship hall and a dorm, and a staff and an existing on-campus faculty.

Those who would like to take the time and be critical of Bethany's professors and curriculum, I would suggest that they explore the purpose of Bethany's existance. The purpose is not to educate men for teaching in a college or seminary, but rather to provide an education for those called of God to enter the ministry late in life. There are many who late in life feel the call of God to the pastorate, to missions, and even to serve as a missionary. They have families and are not privileged to have the necessities that others may have. They do not have the money to pay the large tuition costs of accredited institutions. These men and women deserve the right to earn a degree such as Bethany offers if that is their desire. An examination of BDC in respect to the required work and the oversight they are given in directing their studies, one will find that the school is not a "diploma mill" as some have suggested.

The Ph. D. programs offered by Bethany are in Religion and not Bible and Theology, even though one may major in Bible and Theology. Therefore, the Academic Board of Bethany did not feel that a study of Greek and Hebrew was necessary for a degree in Religion. Bethany refuses to offer a Doctor of Theology or even the Doctor of Sacred Theology because the school is aware that to offer these degree programs, a language requirement would be a must, and offering language through off-campus studies would be a very difficult task. Therefore, the school offers a Doctor of Theological Studies which does not require a language such as Greek and Hebrew. At least BDC is being honest about its programs of study and trying to avoid issuing degrees that demand a language, which is not true of some other institutions I know.

It is not my purpose to argue the pros and cons with those who participate on this forum, for I do not feel I am capable or worthy to be a part of such elite and magnificent minds. I do know the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savour, and I know there are men and women out there that Bethany can help.

 

[UZThD]

I must say that there are some interesting minds on this forum. I appreciate the discussions as well as the philosophy given by each individual, for it may be that one enlightens the other. I suppose that was the same as existed in Paul's day on Mars Hill.

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Your situation is the same as Paul on Mars Hill? That's right. Use adhominum by implication when your claims are proven wrong.You are a Paul and any who disagrees with you is an unchristian stoic . nice set-up!

And , remember, don't admit your mistakes like, "Oops I was really wrong about B of D using a faculty with accredited docs in Bib/Theol. sorry!""

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, but rather to provide an education for those called of God to enter the ministry late in life. There are many who late in life feel the call of God to the pastorate, to missions, and even to serve as a missionary. They have families and are not privileged to have the necessities that others may have. They do not have the money to pay the large tuition costs of accredited institutions. These men and women deserve the right to earn a degree such as Bethany offers campus studies would be a very difficult task.
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Right. Every missionary and minister must have a PhD musn't he/she. love to be called "Dr" "Dr"

and back to your batting average ): :

1. Strike one, Privileges? I went to Western (MDiv/ThM) and paid for it by WORKING ,teaching school full time, and raising a famlily.
2. Strike two, Late in life? I'm old too .I was 65, and retired after 35 years of teaching, when I got my accredited Unizuldoc
3. Strike three , Large tuition cost? $ $3000 at UZ in 2001-2005! A doctor of theology can be done right now entirely by distance ed for $8000 at the accredited SATS!

You're out again!!!

There are no excuses for earning substandard masters and doctoral degrees in Bible or Theology. God and His Word deserve more!

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I do not feel I am capable or worthy to be a part of such elite and magnificent minds.

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more adhominum implied.

Let's get down to it: you say languages in a PhD in Bible are not needed because of all the wonderful tools we now have. hokey, dokey, THEN:

just before you go, your answer to my question about how one with a Bethany PhD WITHOUT language would explain the issue [raised by a DTS ThM grad--not even a "Dr" "Dr" ] of whether harpagmos is an overlooked datum for functional inequality in the Trinity and the cognate, pivotal issue of whether the articulated infinitive there is anaphoric is.......?? hmmmmmmmmm?

simple task any Western MDiv grad should be able to do!

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Well I went to the site and looked at the picture. I saw nothing noting CES in the picture,address,street,city,county,state or nation.
Go to the Site of CES and you will find a Qualified staff. Since everything is done by correspondence through mentors the size of the campus is irrelavant, the qualifications and how much time and effort is spent with the student is relevant. The mentors are all over the country. The mentors have accredited degrees in the fields they are teaching and are qualified to teach thier subject matter. The true assets of the school is the staff. As time goes by and the school grows I don't know if accreditation will be one of the goals but I would see it as a truly unique school in the sense of it's staff and the design of education (somewhat European) a great opportunity for learning.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

You might want to think about Columbia Evangelical Seminary. I don't think the rigor or the credentials of the faculty are in question. In addition you are provided with mentors along the way. They are very reasonably priced and affordable. You can also with thier assistance custom build a degree program, something very unique espescially if you want to really develop serious expertise in a given area of study.:godisgood:

In the interest of full disclosure, aren't you a faculty member of CES?

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

In the interest of full disclosure, aren't you a faculty member of CES?

Think I was thinking of another Bill, sorry.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Let me get in on this discussion. First, in the interest of full disclosure, I just became an adjunct faculty member of Bethany. However, I am also a graduate (Th.M. in '82 and Ph.D. in '91).

The education I received at Bethany Divinity College and Seminary served me well. My Ph.D. was in pastoral counseling and I can truthfully and honestly state the courses prepared me well for not only a career in mental health counseling but also enabled me to pass the National Clinical Mental Health Counselors' Exam for licensure as a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor.

I passed this exam on my first try and at the time, 60% of first time examinees failed. I had friends who graduated with master's degrees in counseling, social work, and psychology from some of the best universities in the state fail the exam on their first try.

True Bethany is no Harvard or Princeton or Yale. It is not even an Earlham School of Religion or a United Theological Seminary. However, it is NOT a degree mill. Bethany is a real school, with a real campus with real degreed professors. Bethany meets the needs of many who want to serve God in pastoral ministry at reasonable and affordable tuition. The school is good enough for independent and Southern Baptist congregations during the pastoral hiring process.

Bethany has made mistakes during their early years of operation. Accreditation by ACI is one of these mistakes. However, Bethany, during the last several years, has striven to improve their quality of education, strengthen their academics, and make the necessary changes to offer even more sound theological training.

Thanks!

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Well, I wants to get me one of them their doctorates. I don't need no acreditit degree from some government regulatori agency. I just needs to study the Bible. It don't matter what others have thunk about Jesus in the past, I gots the Spirit and that's all i need. Come to think of it, I'll just print my own diploma and hang it up in my office.

This is an insult to many who have unaccredited doctorates who certainly speak with intelligence and have excellent command of the English language. There are numerous people holding doctoral degrees from fine accredited universities who use horrible grammar.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

This is true. The reason for allowing persons in prison to study through Bethany is because Jaesus said, "When I was in prison you visited me not." The context of all Jesus said has not been herein stated. However, those who know the context, know that Jesus was referring to believers who were in prison. It is because of this that Bethany has felt the need for offering believers in prison an opportunity to study God's Word. For a prisoner to be allowed to enroll with Bethany, he must sign a statement that he is a Christian and then the statement must be verified and approved by the chaplain.

Pointing out that prisoners can study at and earn degrees from Bethany is one of the arguments against Bethany by the ignorant. Many prisoners earn ACCREDITED degrees in prison. Some people need to educate themselves before trying to teach others.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

...simple task any Western MDiv grad should be able to do!

Don't know about Western grads, Bill, but I have spoken with grads of other mainline seminaries and most don't remember one thing about the Greek and Hebrew they learned. As a matter of fact, my pastor, who graduated with an M.Div. from Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and who began seminary at United in Dayton, has to use grammars and lexicons when preparing sermons.

Since you recently completed your doctorate on the very subject you mentioned, obviously you remember the Greek. But knowing you as I do, I am certain you'd remember ad infinitum.

Now, I have heard a number of preachers with accredited grad and post-grad degrees state they don't remember much of the Greek and Hebrew they learned in seminary. Does this mean one shouldn't learn it? Of course it doesn't. But if one forgets, what's the difference between one who learned it and one who didn't? Both end up using lexicons, grammars, and other linguistic aids. Can you honestly say you don't?

 

[Predestined]

I recently completed the D.T.S. program at Bethany. Congratulations on your new position at Bethany, Jimmy! :thumbs:

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

I recently completed the D.T.S. program at Bethany. Congratulations on your new position at Bethany, Jimmy! :thumbs:

Thanks. How did you like the DTS program?

 

[Predestined]

Immensely. . . I truly enjoyed Chafer's systematic theology volumes that were used as textbooks.

 

[Martin]

Mr. Clifton,

Wow, you have earned more degrees than I have!!

What was your opinion of Golden State? I know they are not accredited at this time, but I also know they have been around for some time. I am not interested in attending, it is just that you are the first person I have seen who actually graduated from Golden State.

I looked up California Coast University and California College for Health Sciences. Interesting schools. Do you mind saying what your MS degrees are in? The programs of California Coast University and California College for Health Sciences look interesting. I have never heard of either of them. Both of them are accredited, if they could get regional accreditation that would make them much more attractive. Not for me, none of their degrees are in my fields (History/Theology), I am talking about for others.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Thanks. How did you like the DTS program?

Hey Jimmy,

I see you have the NACCC logo on your profile. I am an independent Congregational Pastor but I used to Pastor a church in the National Association.

I have degrees (B.S.R. & M.A.R.) from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and I was considering the D.T.S. from Bethany but I settled on the Ph.D. in Creation Science from The North Tennessee Bible Institute and Seminary.

Bethany looks like a good school with a conservative approach the Scriptures and to scholarship. I hold two degrees from a prominent ACCREDITED University and Seminary and I do not hesitate to recommend many fine unaccredited institutions that I have researched and am familiar with.

Different institutions have different purposes. Many have decided to stay unaccredited for the sake of size, cost, and other very legitimate factors.

Bethany looks to be a rather good school for the purpose of training conservative pastors, missionaries, evangelists, teachers, knowledgeable laity, etc.

:godisgood:

 

[Rhetorician]

Mr. Clifton Response

This is an insult to many who have unaccredited doctorates who certainly speak with intelligence and have excellent command of the English language. There are numerous people holding doctoral degrees from fine accredited universities who use horrible grammar.

Mr. Clifton,

I am glad for your strongly held beliefs about education. Could you sir cite for me which in your number of degrees is Regionally Accredited or which of your theological degrees is accredited by the Association of Theological Schools?

Excuse me sir, I meant to include your academic credentials:

"B.S. Delta State University
M.T.S. Universidad FLET
M.S. California Coast University
M.S. California College for Health Sciences
M.Div. Golden State School of Theology
Th.M./Ph.D. Bethany Divinity Seminary
Locksmith certificate Foley-Belsaw
Locksmith certificate PCDI
Paralegal studies in progress Blackstone Career Institute"

This if for my information only. No slam or slur intended.

 

[TCGreek]

Last November I was at a friend's home and stumbled upon a Bethany workbook that he's working through Genesis.

Well, I decided to look through it. I was not impressed. It happened to be master's level work.

But I guess Bethany would work for some people.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Mr. Clifton,

Wow, you have earned more degrees than I have!!

I hope you aren't as broke as I am due to earning many degrees, ha!

What was your opinion of Golden State?

I like Golden State, academically. I was constantly challenged to go deeper with each paper (and rewrite) I submitted. The counseling materials were very current and based on the latest research.

The main problem I had with GSST was that they claimed they had applied for DETC accreditation and that DETC was actually going to conduct an on-site visit. None of this was accurate. In all fairness, however, the school official who told me this is very ill and has memory problems, I have since discovered.

Do you mind saying what your MS degrees are in?

Not at all. The CCHS master's is in Health Services with a concentration in Community Health. The CCU master's is in psychology. CCHS will never apply for RA as they have told me on several ocassions.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Last November I was at a friend's home and stumbled upon a Bethany workbook that he's working through Genesis.

Well, I decided to look through it. I was not impressed. It happened to be master's level work.

But I guess Bethany would work for some people.

So I guess we can assume your friend was working on a doctorate, can we? As a master's level work, did it meet your criteria for master's level work?

When I attended Earlham School of Religion (ATS accredited) back in the early '80's, one of the courses in my M.Div. program was a bachelor's level course called Mind and Body. It was taught at the college, not at the seminary.

 

[TCGreek]

So I guess we can assume your friend was working on a doctorate, can we? As a master's level work, did it meet your criteria for master's level work?

When I attended Earlham School of Religion (ATS accredited) back in the early '80's, one of the courses in my M.Div. program was a bachelor's level course called Mind and Body. It was taught at the college, not at the seminary.

I did an accredited master's degree and know what makes for a good program.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Mr. Clifton,

I am glad for your strongly held beliefs about education. Could you sir cite for me which in your number of degrees is Regionally Accredited or which of your theological degrees is accredited by the Association of Theological Schools?

Excuse me sir, I meant to include your academic credentials:

"B.S. Delta State University
M.T.S. Universidad FLET
M.S. California Coast University
M.S. California College for Health Sciences
M.Div. Golden State School of Theology
Th.M./Ph.D. Bethany Divinity Seminary
Locksmith certificate Foley-Belsaw
Locksmith certificate PCDI
Paralegal studies in progress Blackstone Career Institute"

This if for my information only. No slam or slur intended.

Greetings, my friend,

I was not offended nor did I think you were being critical. My bachelor's is RA; my CCU, CCHS, and FLET degrees are all NA; the rest are UA; the PCDI locksmith certificate is NA. I am very seriously considering working on a D.Th. at the South African Theological Seminary.

Blessings,