Bethany Divinity College and Seminary

[Jimmy Clifton]

Hey Jimmy,

I see you have the NACCC logo on your profile. I am an independent Congregational Pastor but I used to Pastor a church in the National Association.

I have degrees (B.S.R. & M.A.R.) from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and I was considering the D.T.S. from Bethany but I settled on the Ph.D. in Creation Science from The North Tennessee Bible Institute and Seminary.

Bethany looks like a good school with a conservative approach the Scriptures and to scholarship. I hold two degrees from a prominent ACCREDITED University and Seminary and I do not hesitate to recommend many fine unaccredited institutions that I have researched and am familiar with.

Different institutions have different purposes. Many have decided to stay unaccredited for the sake of size, cost, and other very legitimate factors.

Bethany looks to be a rather good school for the purpose of training conservative pastors, missionaries, evangelists, teachers, knowledgeable laity, etc.

:godisgood:

Greetings my Pilgrim brother!

I had never heard of NTBIS until now. I just looked it up. It appears to be a good UA school. I agree that there are good UA schools but also fully recognize there are a number of degree and diploma mills.

I wish you the best at NTBIS.

An independent Congregationalist, I see. Does this mean you were ordained by a Congregationalist church that was itself affiliated with neither the NA or the CCCC?

Take care,

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

...I personally spoke to Walston, by email, and he stated to me that the reason he did lot list Bethany was because he had earned a good number of degrees and he did not feel like listing them all, not that he had anything against Bethany...It would really take a lot of time and space to list his Bethany degree, wouldn't it :laugh:

And yet you work for him.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Let me state the main reason a good number of folks dislike UA seminaries: They are mad that they have paid tens of thousands of dollars to be called "Doctor" and UA doc holders have paid so much less. This is the bottom line in addition to many UA programs requiring fewer hours. Instead of being angry at others, the RA doc holders should give praise and glory to the Lord Jesus Christ they were able to afford their education and find the time to accomplish their studies.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Greetings my Pilgrim brother!

I had never heard of NTBIS until now. I just looked it up. It appears to be a good UA school. I agree that there are good UA schools but also fully recognize there are a number of degree and diploma mills.

I wish you the best at NTBIS.

An independent Congregationalist, I see. Does this mean you were ordained by a Congregationalist church that was itself affiliated with neither the NA or the CCCC?

Take care,

Jimmy,

I was ordained in a Congregational Church that was (is) part of the NACCC. The church I Pastor now was once a part of the UCC but pulled out over the non-biblical direction the UCC has taken. We are unaffiliated presently and I suspect it will stay that way. We have a conservative group of Bible-believers who want to hear the Scriptures taught. Guess that's why they hired a more "baptistic" oriented Liberty Grad like me!

I too know that their are some serious problems with diploma mills but I think it so unfortunate that good UA schools are given a bum rap by Christians who - in my estimation - should be supporting alternatives to having pastors earn degrees and graduate with $100,000.00 in student loans!

Smaller local churches wonder why they can't keep a Pastor for more than two years and why they are viewed as "stepping stone" churches by so many young Pastors but they expect a man with that kind of debt to work for peanuts - albeit honest peanuts, but peanuts nonetheless! He has to move on so that he can provide for his family by looking for a bigger and bigger paycheck!

It is a TERRIBLE cycle that we are in with big indebtedness out of seminary and it is hurting the Church much more than most are willing to admit; in my humble opinion... :smilewinkgrin:

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Jimmy,

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[StefanM]

It is a TERRIBLE cycle that we are in with big indebtedness out of seminary and it is hurting the Church much more than most are willing to admit; in my humble opinion... :smilewinkgrin:

Though I'm not in the same boat as someone pursuing an MDiv, my school (Mid-America Baptist Seminary) is RA (not ATS) and is very reasonably priced.

My Master of Arts in Christian Education (64 hrs) is probably going to end up costing me around 8,500-9,000 dollars in tuition. That's quite reasonable compared to most seminaries.

This is definitely a great blessing, and it will enable me to serve full-time on staff in a church without needing to make 60k.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Though I'm not in the same boat as someone pursuing an MDiv, my school (Mid-America Baptist Seminary) is RA (not ATS) and is very reasonably priced.

My Master of Arts in Christian Education (64 hrs) is probably going to end up costing me around 8,500-9,000 dollars in tuition. That's quite reasonable compared to most seminaries.

This is definitely a great blessing, and it will enable me to serve full-time on staff in a church without needing to make 60k.

That is wonderful! I was really blessed in this regard myself. I completed much of my Bachelor Degree in Religion (Bible) from Liberty University while on Active Duty in the Marines. The military pays 100% books, fees, and tuition while you are on active duty. Then I was able to use my G.I. Bill (monthly income for college after discharge) for earning the Masters Degree in Religion (Ministry) from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary.

I am still using the G.I. Bill to complete the M.Div. one class at a time with Liberty. I recently began working on the Ph.D. from an unaccredited school at a MUCH lower tuition rate than Liberty and am paying cash for that one.

I now people though, who have spent upwards of $25,000.00 on an ATS accredited Seminary Degree after having spent that much already on a state school Bachelors degree. I dislike ATS. I would that more Evangelical schools would pull out of ATS and use the ABHE or Regional Accrediting bodies. ATS is very slow to allow completely online degree programs while Liberty (RA and TRACS accredited) has been doing this very successfully for years!

 

[StefanM]

I now people though, who have spent upwards of $25,000.00 on an ATS accredited Seminary Degree after having spent that much already on a state school Bachelors degree. I dislike ATS. I would that more Evangelical schools would pull out of ATS and use the ABHE or Regional Accrediting bodies. ATS is very slow to allow completely online degree programs while Liberty (RA and TRACS accredited) has been doing this very successfully for years!

I completely agree! I think conservative evangelical schools need to withdraw and form their own accreditation agency if necessary. Let ATS stick with the UU "Starr King School for the Ministry" type schools.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

I completely agree! I think conservative evangelical schools need to withdraw and form their own accreditation agency if necessary. Let ATS stick with the UU "Starr King School for the Ministry" type schools.

Amen to that! :thumbs:

Not only are they behind the times with distance learning but like you said, they are affiliated with some VERY unbiblical schools. What kind of sense does it make that Dallas Theological Seminary is accredited by the same agency that accredits Chicago Theological Seminary - one of the most theologically liberal and socially liberal institutions in the country! :BangHead:

In my opinion it has to do with very pride-filled thinking on the part of the leadership of those schools. I have interacted with a lot of folk with "prestigious" degrees from Evangelical Schools that are ATS accredited who look down on schools that are accredited by TRACS; even calling them diploma mills! TRACS was founded to be the very accrediting body you are talking about if I understand their mission correctly.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

I completely agree! I think conservative evangelical schools need to withdraw and form their own accreditation agency if necessary. Let ATS stick with the UU "Starr King School for the Ministry" type schools.

This is copied and pasted directly off of the ATS website under their alphabetical listing... three of the SBC's "big six" seminaries are listed characters away from Star King School for the Ministry! :BangHead: (I LOVE that emoticon!)

Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Southern Evangelical Seminary
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Starr King School for the Ministry

 

[StefanM]

TRACS was founded to be the very accrediting body you are talking about if I understand their mission correctly.

TRACS accredits undergraduate institutions. I would argue for an ATS alternative for graduate theological education.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Jimmy,

I was ordained in a Congregational Church that was (is) part of the NACCC. The church I Pastor now was once a part of the UCC but pulled out over the non-biblical direction the UCC has taken. We are unaffiliated presently and I suspect it will stay that way. We have a conservative group of Bible-believers who want to hear the Scriptures taught. Guess that's why they hired a more "baptistic" oriented Liberty Grad like me!

I too know that their are some serious problems with diploma mills but I think it so unfortunate that good UA schools are given a bum rap by Christians who - in my estimation - should be supporting alternatives to having pastors earn degrees and graduate with $100,000.00 in student loans!

Smaller local churches wonder why they can't keep a Pastor for more than two years and why they are viewed as "stepping stone" churches by so many young Pastors but they expect a man with that kind of debt to work for peanuts - albeit honest peanuts, but peanuts nonetheless! He has to move on so that he can provide for his family by looking for a bigger and bigger paycheck!

It is a TERRIBLE cycle that we are in with big indebtedness out of seminary and it is hurting the Church much more than most are willing to admit; in my humble opinion... :smilewinkgrin:

Hi,

Saw your church's web site. It's very nice and you have a lovely family.

In addition to the NA, if your church ever feels led to align itself with a national body, the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference and the Evangelical Association of Reformed and Congregational Christian Churches are good choices.

I understand about huge school debts. When I was at Earlham School of Religion in the early '80's, I paid $300 per course for an M.Div. program. Most grads served in small, rural churches paying about $100 per week. Try supporting a family and paying off huge school loans on $100 per week. My first congregation, Economy Friends Meeting, paid me $50 per week and I was supplemented by Indiana Yearly Meeting for a total weekly salary of $95.00.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

TRACS accredits undergraduate institutions. I would argue for an ATS alternative for graduate theological education.

That isn't the case actually. Luther Rice Seminary, Temple Baptist Seminary, and many others are accredited only by TRACS although I agree that regardless Evangelical Seminaries would do well to distance themselves from ATS - if only to non-affiliate with ultra liberal seminaries and to offer a more complete distance learning package. When there is a 1/3 or more residency requirement most who can't leave ministry, family, or career for on campus studies are not going to be able to do that either!

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

TRACS accredits undergraduate institutions. I would argue for an ATS alternative for graduate theological education.

I am not sure if you are implying TRACS also accredits undergrad schools or that in addition to grad schools TRACS also accredits undergrad schools.

For informational purposes only, TRACS accredits schools that offer master's and doctorate degrees.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Hi,

Saw your church's web site. It's very nice and you have a lovely family.

In addition to the NA, if your church ever feels led to align itself with a national body, the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference and the Evangelical Association of Reformed and Congregational Christian Churches are good choices.

I understand about huge school debts. When I was at Earlham School of Religion in the early '80's, I paid $300 per course for an M.Div. program. Most grads served in small, rural churches paying about $100 per week. Try supporting a family and paying off huge school loans on $100 per week. My first congregation, Economy Friends Meeting, paid me $50 per week and I was supplemented by Indiana Yearly Meeting for a total weekly salary of $95.00.

Thanks Jimmy! The church did look into the 4 C's but some of the members thought them too strict on women in leadership issues. I don't know much about that but that is what they told me...

I'll take a look at the other group you mentioned. I have never heard of them before. Thanks for the encouragement about the website. I started building sites when I was on active duty and it is now a real asset in church ministry. We actually just had another boy born last Sunday. I need to get an updated portrait for the website and the house!

 

[StefanM]

I am not sure if you are implying TRACS also accredits undergrad schools or that in addition to grad schools TRACS also accredits undergrad schools.

For informational purposes only, TRACS accredits schools that offer master's and doctorate degrees.

I simply meant that they also accredit undergrad schools. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

 

[Jimmy Clifton]

Thanks Jimmy! The church did look into the 4 C's but some of the members thought them too strict on women in leadership issues. I don't know much about that but that is what they told me...

I'll take a look at the other group you mentioned. I have never heard of them before. Thanks for the encouragement about the website. I started building sites when I was on active duty and it is now a real asset in church ministry. We actually just had another boy born last Sunday. I need to get an updated portrait for the website and the house!

Congrats on the new child.

Here is the site for the other group.

 

[Martin]

I hope you aren't as broke as I am due to earning many degrees, ha!

==I wish that were the case. Look up broke in the dictionary and my picture is beside it. :laugh:

I like Golden State, academically. I was constantly challenged to go deeper with each paper (and rewrite) I submitted. The counseling materials were very current and based on the latest research.

The main problem I had with GSST was that they claimed they had applied for DETC accreditation and that DETC was actually going to conduct an on-site visit. None of this was accurate. In all fairness, however, the school official who told me this is very ill and has memory problems, I have since discovered.

==I have been surprised that Golden State has not gone for TRACS accreditation. For some reason I keep wanting to link Golden State with the now closed American Bible College & Seminary. American had TRACS accreditation before they lost it and then closed their doors.

Not at all. The CCHS master's is in Health Services with a concentration in Community Health. The CCU master's is in psychology. CCHS will never apply for RA as they have told me on several ocassions.

==Sounds like an interesting mix of subjects.:wavey:

 

[Martin]

Let me state the main reason a good number of folks dislike UA seminaries: They are mad that they have paid tens of thousands of dollars to be called "Doctor" and UA doc holders have paid so much less. This is the bottom line in addition to many UA programs requiring fewer hours. Instead of being angry at others, the RA doc holders should give praise and glory to the Lord Jesus Christ they were able to afford their education and find the time to accomplish their studies.

My "issue" has nothing to do with cost. It has to do with quality. Many "unaccredited" schools such as Covington or Andersonville simply don't require the level of work that should be required for a Thd or PhD. There are, of course, many exceptions to that. Bob Jones University was one of those exceptions before gaining accreditation. I also warn people about earning unaccredited graduate degrees because most universities/seminaries will not acknowledge such degrees for further educational purposes or for employment purposes. However, at the end of the day, each person has to make their own decisions about these matters. I try to never discourage a person who is earning a degree from a school I don't think highly of. So while I have come out, on this board, "hard" against certain schools it should be noted that if I am talking with someone who is working at Andersonville (etc) I wish them well in their studies. My former pastor got his degrees from Covington and he was one of the best pastors I have ever had.

 

[Martin]

In my opinion it has to do with very pride-filled thinking on the part of the leadership of those schools. I have interacted with a lot of folk with "prestigious" degrees from Evangelical Schools that are ATS accredited who look down on schools that are accredited by TRACS; even calling them diploma mills! TRACS was founded to be the very accrediting body you are talking about if I understand their mission correctly.

I have run into that as well over the years. The funny part about it, ok the sad part about it, is that many secular universities/colleges will not honor degrees/credits from ATS accredited schools (that don't also hold RA). Secular universities usually want RA for purposes of employment and many times for the purpose of further education. The school I am finishing my MA/History degree at holds this policy. I was talking with the chair of the history department a few months ago and he was telling me about students coming from Bible Colleges/Seminaries who wanted to get a MA/History, an MAT in Social Studies, or just licensure. The problem, however, is that many of the Bible Colleges/Seminaries these students are coming from either are not accredited at all or are accredited by agencies that are not regional. He, the chair, said he felt bad about turning them away but that he had to do it all the time. He even told me about a lady who has been forced to start from scratch because she earned a BA from a unaccredited religious school and needed an accredited degree to enter into the graduate program. The Univeristy did accept my MA from Liberty, as the North Carolina Community College system has, but only because it is RA.

So what I say is that if you might want to further your education at a secular school (teaching licensure, another degree, etc) you need to get your degrees from RA schools only. The same is true for those who wish to teach.

ATS and TRACS only schools are fine for ministers but they are not fine for students seeking an academic career. Those folks need RA degrees.