BETRAYAL

[Van]

Matthew 26,
49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

Note the saddest thing about betrayal is it doesn't come from an enemy, but a friend or loved one.

Its simple, you can't be betrayed unless they were on your side to begin with.

That's what a TRAITOR is.

You can define the word meaning according to your view, and then claim that it supports your view. But if you actually want to understand it, you use the meaning provided in the lexicon. And "paradidomi" refers to giving someone over to an enemy.

This Greek word (paradidomi) means "to give into the hands of another." It is most often translated as "deliver" or give or give over. But about 40 times it is translated as betrayal.

This is the word found in Matthew 10:4, Matthew 17:22, Matthew 20:18, Matthew 26:2, Matthew 26:16, Matthew 26:24, Matthew 26:25, Matthew 26:45, and Matthew 27:3,

I am guessing (because I did not see where you answered my question) that you are trying to say Judas lost his salvation, thus attacking the Calvinist doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

Lets leave it that no, he didn't, he was chosen to be the betrayer and was prevented by God from believing in Jesus before the betrayal into the hands of His enemies. See John 6:64-65 where Judas was not allowed to come to Jesus spiritually. Judas is like those folks in Matthew 7 who did ministry but Jesus never knew them (indwelt them).

 

[utilyan]

If Judas was always evil Jesus Christ committed a sacrilege by knowingly putting a child of the devil in the highest office of the church.

Scripture shows Requirements to be disciple , requirements to be Bishop, Judas would have had to met all requirements.


1 Corinthians 12
27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.


Judas was a member of Christ's body.


You want to make a case you better off pushing never a disciple and never an apostle.

 

[StefanM]

If Judas was always evil Jesus Christ committed a sacrilege by knowingly putting a child of the devil in the highest office of the church.

Scripture shows Requirements to be disciple , requirements to be Bishop, Judas would have had to met all requirements.


1 Corinthians 12
27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.


Judas was a member of Christ's body.


You want to make a case you better off pushing never a disciple and never an apostle.

False disciple, never an apostle. Chosen deliberately by God's will. Problem solved.

 

[utilyan]

False disciple, never an apostle. Chosen deliberately by God's will. Problem solved.

Matthew 10

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


That's the name of the ELEVEN apostles you mean........? Maybe Simon and who is called Peter are two different people.

 

[StefanM]

Matthew 10

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


That's the name of the ELEVEN apostles you mean........? Maybe Simon and who is called Peter are two different people.

Fair enough, false apostle then. One can be in the office but not truly meet the requirements.

Surely you can follow--are not your most wicked popes still considered popes?

 

[utilyan]

Matthew 10

22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.


Does it say the one who is saved shall endure to the end or does it say the one who has endured to the end will be saved?

Want me to go through a list of BACKWARDS verses?

 

[StefanM]

Matthew 10

22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.


Does it say the one who is saved shall endure to the end or does it say the one who has endured to the end will be saved?

Want me to go through a list of BACKWARDS verses?

Not required. Front or back, the result is the same.

 

[kyredneck]

If Judas was always evil Jesus Christ committed a sacrilege by knowingly putting a child of the devil in the highest office of the church.

How plain could He have been?:

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? Jn 6

The "sacrilege" that you foolishly accuse Him of is 'fulfilling the scriptures' (which He did a whooooole lot of).:

17 If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them.
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. Jn 13

 

[kyredneck]

An aside; I see similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel:

It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?

It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?

The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:

Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17

Christ refers to Judas as a devil:

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71

Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count along with Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.

I can't see Judas's name included in Rev 21:14.:

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be made desolate, And let no man dwell therein: and, His office let another take. Acts 1

 

[kyredneck]

16 Brethren, it was needful that the Scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spake before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus. Acts 1

 

[utilyan]

How plain could He have been?:

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? Jn 6

The "sacrilege" that you foolishly accuse Him of is 'fulfilling the scriptures' (which He did a whooooole lot of).:

17 If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them.
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. Jn 13

He did not appoint a child of the devil. Judas became it.

We see Jesus call Peter, SATAN. Doesn't mean Peter has always been SATAN.

We see the Devil enter Judas twice. Once to conspire and after the Passover meal/washing of feet.

Why would the devil have to enter Judas if Judas was already the Devil?


I'll give you a better indicator. By Christ's own defense.

Jesus was accused of being in league with the devil.

Matthew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?


Jesus' DEFENSE for not being in league with the Devil is Satan won't cast out Satan. Because if he is divided against himself then his kingdom doesn't stand at all.



Matthew 7
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’


See here we have those who indeed cast out demons and perform miracles, they could not do it in League with the Devil as Jesus pointed out previously. Remember Satan cannot cast out Satan.

What happened? THEY FELL. They did not endure till the end.

Once they were saved with the power and authority of Jesus Christ even cast out demons, They FELL.

 

[Van]

Judas was never saved, he was chosen to be the betrayer, the one to deliver the Messiah over to enemies. Not only did he not believe, God prevented him from believing until the betrayal.

 

[utilyan]

Judas was never saved, he was chosen to be the betrayer, the one to deliver the Messiah over to enemies. Not only did he not believe, God prevented him from believing until the betrayal.

Ah so Judas has done everything God wanted and desire him to do. There is no sin.

 

[Van]

Unless you can support your assertions from scripture, I am not sure why you make then. Everybody sins, for all have fallen short...

One of the non-Cal views is that God makes some elections or choices based on the characteristics of the one chosen. Judas was well chosen to be the betrayer a child of wrath by nature. Matthew was well chosen, a tax collector, because he was meticulous in keeping records, thus his gospel is very detailed.
There are lots of flaws in the mistaken doctrines of Calvinism, but the doctrine of once saved always saved is not one of them.

Judas was a sinner deserving of wrath when He was chosen to betray. Now you ask a very good question, but it seems not to be clearly answered in scripture - if God compels a person to sin, would God turn around and punish the person for the sin God compelled. The logical answer is no, but without the support of scripture, it is speculation. God is just and that would be unjust, but who am I to judge God?

 

[utilyan]

Unless you can support your assertions from scripture, I am not sure why you make then. Everybody sins, for all have fallen short...

One of the non-Cal views is that God makes some elections or choices based on the characteristics of the one chosen. Judas was well chosen to be the betrayer a child of wrath by nature. Matthew was well chosen, a tax collector, because he was meticulous in keeping records, thus his gospel is very detailed.
There are lots of flaws in the mistaken doctrines of Calvinism, but the doctrine of once saved always saved is not one of them.

Judas was a sinner deserving of wrath when He was chosen to betray. Now you ask a very good question, but it seems not to be clearly answered in scripture - if God compels a person to sin, would God turn around and punish the person for the sin God compelled. The logical answer is no, but without the support of scripture, it is speculation. God is just and that would be unjust, but who am I to judge God?

Logic?

If God commands something it means that is exactly what he WANTS and DESIRES.

God is not deceptive, God does not LIE.

When you sin, it is YOUR FAULT, not God's.


"Now you ask a very good question, but it seems not to be clearly answered in scripture - if God compels a person to sin, would God turn around and punish the person for the sin God compelled."

Let me clearly answer this with scripture for you.

James 1

13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.




God is not evil. Nothing about evil is a privilege or a perk. Evil is a absurdity to God. This includes the evil of lack of mercy, lack of love, lack of kindness.

 

[Van]

Does God compelling Judas to betray Jesus, conflict with God not tempting Judas? Nope.

Did I say God is deceptive or lies? Nope

If God compelled a person to sin, would that be the person's fault? Nope

So if God predestined whatsoever comes to pass, including our choice to sin, would He then punish us for those sins? Why not answer the question with a no.

 

[utilyan]

Does God compelling Judas to betray Jesus, conflict with God not tempting Judas? Nope.

Did I say God is deceptive or lies? Nope

If God compelled a person to sin, would that be the person's fault? Nope

So if God predestined whatsoever comes to pass, including our choice to sin, would He then punish us for those sins? Why not answer the question with a no.

There is no "IF". God does not tempt anyone. To "compel" would be beyond the boundary of tempt.

James 1

13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.



1 john 1

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


I shown scripture that God is not Evil, not the author of evil.

Compelling one to do evil....is evil.

You have not provided any scripture.


Ps. Pharaoh did it first.

 

[Van]

There is no "IF". God does not tempt anyone. To "compel" would be beyond the boundary of tempt.
I shown scripture that God is not Evil, not the author of evil.
Compelling one to do evil....is evil.
You have not provided any scripture.
Ps. Pharaoh did it first.

Yes, I understand that you believe God never compels people to do evil. You equate being tempted (invited to make a evil choice) with being compelled (not allowed to choose). If you think that reasoning is sound, there appears nothing more I could say.

But let me try one more truth, evil can be in the eye of the beholder. Say, in a war, one soldier kills another. The person killed would say the killing was evil. The other soldier would say he just did his job and actually saved the innocent lives the other soldier might have taken. So if your house is hit with a tornado, you would say it was an evil wind, but God would see it as part of the harsh environment that encourages people to seek God as a refuge.

I provided scripture which says Judas was chosen from the beginning to be the betrayer, to fulfill the prophesy that the Messiah would be betrayed. Also that Judas from the time he was chosen was prevented from trusting in Christ. Thus Judas was compelled, not tempted, to betray Jesus.

 

[utilyan]

Yes, I understand that you believe God never compels people to do evil. You equate being tempted (invited to make a evil choice) with being compelled (not allowed to choose). If you think that reasoning is sound, there appears nothing more I could say.

But let me try one more truth, evil can be in the eye of the beholder. Say, in a war, one soldier kills another. The person killed would say the killing was evil. The other soldier would say he just did his job and actually saved the innocent lives the other soldier might have taken. So if your house is hit with a tornado, you would say it was an evil wind, but God would see it as part of the harsh environment that encourages people to seek God as a refuge.

I provided scripture which says Judas was chosen from the beginning to be the betrayer, to fulfill the prophesy that the Messiah would be betrayed. Also that Judas from the time he was chosen was prevented from trusting in Christ. Thus Judas was compelled, not tempted, to betray Jesus.

"You equate being tempted (invited to make a evil choice) with being compelled (not allowed to choose)."

I would argue that was your belief and you do believe it is sound.

You hit someone with a car they died , accident, compelled by ignorance allowed by God, not your choice, You are accountable for murder correct?

 

[Van]

As I said, there is nothing I can say. Whenever a fellow poster asserts my view is the opposite of my view, further discussion is pointless.