Between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection

[Allan]

OK, so the impression I'm getting is that the OT saints and faithful since the beginning had not yet ascended to Heaven but were awaiting the resurrection in a safe area of Hades/Sheol. Christ came and emptied it out and brought them to Heaven and that place no longer exists.

Is this correct?

Now, when you say 'impression' are you meaning like a fingerprint left behind type impression, or more like a footprint impression in the ground that can used to create a mold of the foot. :laugh:

That is one view that many hold to, yes. You can include me in that group as well.

That place no longer exists because the reason for it's existance no longer exists.

 

[Tom Bryant]

What do we do with 1 Pet 3:18-19?

Isn't Scripture clear on the issue?

Part of the issue with that passage is that verse 20 says that Jesus preached to the spirits who were disobedient. Is that the only thing He did? Ephesians 4 seems to teach that he descended and 'led captivity captive'. Where did He lead them?

I would tend to believe that he preached to those who were disobedient then went to the other side and brought those believers into heaven with Him.

My purpose for this was just to seek various views of that 3 day period.

 

[EdSutton]

Paraniod??

(I'm think I'm being slightly paranoid here but oh well)

Hey!! Even though you are paranoid, just remember that most everyone really is out to get you!!

Ed

 

[TCGreek]

Part of the issue with that passage is that verse 20 says that Jesus preached to the spirits who were disobedient. Is that the only thing He did? Ephesians 4 seems to teach that he descended and 'led captivity captive'. Where did He lead them?

I would tend to believe that he preached to those who were disobedient then went to the other side and brought those believers into heaven with Him.

My purpose for this was just to seek various views of that 3 day period.

My own conclusion is that he proclaimed his victory to the disobedient, on the one hand, and he led the captive saints to heaven, on the other hand.

 

[Tom Bryant]

My own conclusion is that he proclaimed his victory to the disobedient, on the one hand, and he led the captive saints to heaven, on the other hand.

Maybe "How do you like me now?" :tongue3:

I would agree.

 

[webdog]

It came up tonight at Bible study. What did Jesus do during the 3 days when His body was buried?

I have some ideas but was wondering what your thinking might be.

I believe He put His newfound carpenter trade to work and began building the places He promised us

 

[rjprince]

When you couple 1Pet 3:18 w/ 2Pet 2:4-6 and Jude 1:6-7 it is a little bit difficult to support the second view that Marcia presented that Jesus (in spirit) preached to the disobedient in Noah's Day.

1Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Please notice that it does not say that Christ preached in Noah's day, it says that the spirits were disobedient in Noah's day.


As far as the timing of the "leading captivity" there is no kind of time reference in the context that would define the event as occurring between the crucifixion and the resurrection.


Didn't see where anyone mentioned Matt 27:52...

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

RJP

 

[rjprince]

Oh, BTW, the above passages also make it difficult to sustain the idea that Christ preached to the wicked dead. It seems evident that He preached to disobedient angels from a comparison of the passages.


"Tarturus" is not the abode of the wicked dead. It is the abode of fallen angels who seem to have committed an especially reprehensible offense. The "legion" that Jesus cast out of the demoniac of Gadara feared that Jesus would command them to go into the abyss (abussos). That the abyss is used to describe the place of confinement for fallen angels seems indicated from the use of the word in the other places (Re 9:1,2,11 11:7 17:8 20:1,3).

RJP

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is what happens when you combine Greek mythology with Jewish literature. Makes no sense. Tarterus is a deity in charge of the place of the dead. Doesn't have baring on Jewish literature unless you're comparing documents from the Selucid era.

 

[Tater77]

In Greek Mythology , isn't Tartarus the prison of the Titans? I am guessing that Peter used the word because it was an existing word for a divine prison.

Edit: Just looked up some info. It was also a place of punishment for the wicked similar to Hell in Greek myths. So Peter might have chosen this word to indicate a prison in Hell?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

In Greek Mythology , isn't Tartarus the prison of the Titans? I am guessing that Peter used the word because it was an existing word for a divine prison.

Actually yes. Its both a deity and a place. Kind of like Hades.

 

[4His_glory]

I do not think Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison during the time between the crucifixion and the resurrection.

I lean towards the idea that the 1 Peter passage has in view that Christ in spirit preached through Noah. To the disobedient people of his generation. Here is why:

1. Peter has already made reference to the fact that the spirit of Christ in the prophets that ministered through them. So we know at least that Christ was in some OT saints preaching through them. (1 Peter 1:10-11) Furthermore, vs 18 specifically states that it was by the Spirit that Christ preached.

2. It makes no sense whatsoever to preach to sinners already in torment because they have no hope of escaping that place.

3. Unless I am mistaken (and I may be) the grammatical idea of vs. 19 is that these spirits are now in prison, but at one time where not; that time being the days of Noah. Verse 20 mentions that God was long suffering in the days of now as Noah faithfully declared the truth. Yet these men remained disobedient and consequently perished in the flood.

4. The context supports this idea as well. Peter is speaking to Christians facing terrible persecution. He is giving them encouragements to suffer for doing good. One being that Christ suffered as well. Another being this point about the days of Noah. Peter is specifically citing Noah as an illustration. Noah remained faithful, though being mocked and rejected, therefore this believers should be like Noah.

I do realize that many wise and learned people believe that Christ went to hell and preached to spirits there. That is fine by me, I just don´t see that in this passage based on the overall context of Peter's first letter.

 

[Marcia]

What do we do with 1 Pet 3:18-19?

Isn't Scripture clear on the issue?

Gill has the same view as the NET Bible and my pastor:

The plain and easy sense of the words is, that Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison of hell, so the Syriac version renders it, lwyvb, "in hell," see Revelation 20:7 when the Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature; and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/1peter/gill/1peter3.htm

 

[Marcia]

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown go into it in more detail, if you want to click on the link and get the full explanation:

Christ, who in our times came in the flesh, in the days of Noah preached in Spirit by Noah to the spirits then in prison (Isa 61:1, end, "the Spirit of the Lord God hath sent me to proclaim the opening of the prison to them that are bound"). So in 1Pe 1:11, "the Spirit of Christ" is said to have testified in the prophets. As Christ suffered even to death by enemies, and was afterwards quickened in virtue of His "Spirit" (or divine nature, Ro 1:3, 4; 1Co 15:45), which henceforth acted in its full energy, the first result of which was the raising of His body (1Pe 3:21, end) from the prison of the grave and His soul from Hades; so the same Spirit of Christ enabled Noah, amidst reproach and trials, to preach to the disobedient spirits fast bound in wrath. That Spirit in you can enable you also to suffer patiently now, looking for the resurrection deliverance

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/1peter/jfb/1peter3.htm

 

[Marcia]

On the Eph. 4 passage, this is saying that Jesus descended to earth to incarnate. Wesley says this descent is to the womb or the grave:

Now this expression, He ascended, what is it, but that he descended - That is, does it not imply, that he descended first? Certainly it does, on the supposition of his being God. Otherwise it would not: since all the saints will ascend to heaven, though none of them descended thence. Into the lower parts of the earth - So the womb is called, Psalm cxxxix, 5; the grave, Psalm lxiii, 9

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/ephesians/wesley/ephesians4.htm

From the same site, Gill has this view:
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Ephesians+4:8

Ephesians 4:8, out of a passage in Psalm 68:18, which is explained of the humiliation and exaltation of Christ, of his descent from heaven, and ascension thither; the end of which latter was to fill all things, or persons, with gifts, Ephesians 4:9, of which a particular enumeration is given, Ephesians 4:11, the design of which is, to fit men for the work of the ministry, and by them to convert sinners, and edify saints, Ephesians 4:12, which ministry is to be continued, until all the saints arrive to a perfection of spiritual knowledge, and make up one perfect man, or body of men in Christ,

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Ephesians+4:8http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Ephesians+4:8http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Ephesians+4:8

Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown:

captivity--that is, a band of captives. In the Psalm, the captive foes of David. In the antitypical meaning, the foes of Christ the Son of David, the devil, death, the curse, and sin (Col 2:15; 2Pe 2:4), led as it were in triumphal procession as a sign of the destruction of the foe

None of the commentators I read here thinks the Eph. 4 passage has anything to do with Jesus going to Hades or Sheol to proclaim anything or lead anyone out. Nor do I see this in the context of Eph. 4.

 

[annsni]

Does the Ephesians 4:7-10 passage have anything to do with this?
"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)"

Just getting to this thread so forgive me if I'm dealing with old stuff.

But Jesus did descend - from heaven to earth. He not only descended to earth but the "lower parts of the earth" which would point to the grave. Hell/hades is not the lower parts of the earth. It is not in the earth at all.

ETA - I see this has been covered. Continue on.

 

[TCGreek]

Gill has the same view as the NET Bible and my pastor:

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/1peter/gill/1peter3.htm

Ahh! But I'm not easy swayed. :thumbs:

 

[Marcia]

Ahh! But I'm not easy swayed. :thumbs:

Nor I. I wasn't swayed by Gill or anyone. In fact, I just found that today - had never read it before.

I read the passage many times and thought about it. I took what others thought into account. This is what I do with difficult passages (dare we say Gen. 6? -- shhhh....), and then I decide. Or I say I'm not sure.

 

[EdSutton]

Oh, I dunno. I think He preached a couple of sermons, kinda' on the order I posted almost 2 1/2 years ago, which I shall copy here. (Incidentally, that thread is still open for the benefit of Rippon.) [Wink!]

Here is almost exactly what I posted then (with a couple of Language Cop's spelling corrections).

The Lord did go to preach, after His crucifixion, to parts of Hades (or Sheol), the realm of the dead. And I shall take a lot of "poetic license" here [Smilie Snipped!] , as to what He preached, but the essence is there.

He was in Paradise to await the 'thief on the cross', saying, "I AM here as I said I would be for you", and told him to not get settled in, too much, for it was only for a short time. He preached to the saints - to Abraham and Isaac, "I AM the Lamb God provided you on Mt. Moriah, in a figure; to Job, Naomi, Boaz, and Ruth, "I AM the goel - near kinsman redeemer - you saw coming to redeem you!", to Abraham, again, "I AM the one for whose day you awaited"; to Enoch, Elisha, and Elijah, "I AM the driver of the lead chariot!", to Moses, "I AM the one whose has the riches you awaited.", once again, to Abraham, "I am the builder of the city you looked for.", to Jacob, I AM the ladder you ascended, and I AM the one with whom you wrestled all night, and BTW, I notice that your limp is gone.", to Noah, "I AM the ark, and I AM the one who shut the door, keeping you and your family safe.", and to all. "I AM that I AM!", "I AM He who lived and was dead, and behold I AM alive forevermore!", and I AM here to tell you it's 'moving time', so get ready to move out!"

He preached to the angels from Noah's day, in Tartarus prison, saying, "I AM he who Lived and was dead, and behold, I AM alive forevermore." "I have overcome Satan, once and for all, and I AM here to tell you, 'Boys! It's all over, and if you think this is a bad place, hang in there, 'cause you ain't seen nuthin' yet!'" :tonofbricks:

I'm not sure Scripture ever tells us whether or not he ever directly preached to the lost, such as 'the rich man', in 'Torments', but Scripture does tell us that they could 'hear' across "the Great gulf fixed", so they were not missing a thing that was said.

When the three days were up, He, from Paradise said, "I AM leading my captivity captive, I AM taking this place with Me, to a place far better where this cannot even begin to compare, My Father's House, - all of you on this side of the great gulf fixed, here in "Abraham's Bosom", and we are leaving behind, those in torments there, and we're 'gonna' blow' this dump! I've got the keys to this joint, so "Awake!, you who sleep!" :sleeping_2: "Hit it Gabriel! Blow that trumpet!" :wavey: ""And we're outta' here!!!""

Hope you all enjoyed this 'account', "on account of" it's true!

Good fairy tale!

Well, let's see. From the best I am able to determine, it appears that Allan, rjprince, Tom Bryant, and TCGreek, believe about the same "fairy tale" as I do. And it also appears that Tater77 and Thinkingstuff may not be that far removed from the same position I hold, or are at least considering it.

I can consider that as being with pretty good company, in this. :thumbsup:

Here are a couple of posts of mine from a little over a year ago, which expand on this, a bit, including several references.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1158697&postcount=63

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1159403&postcount=69

I have made several others on this subject, but these should serve to suffice in showing a little greater detail about what I believe Scripture teaches about this subject, I think.

Ed

 

[4His_glory]

Gill has the same view as the NET Bible and my pastor:

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/1peter/gill/1peter3.htm

Well I am glad Gill agrees with me. He must have read my commentary. :laugh: