Between two Robbers...

[Van]

What I am asking myself is why every claim of yours that I quotedc makes direct reference to faith at the point of salvation, but you refuse to take responsibility for your words and are desperate to avoid addressing their substance. You describe saving faith in every one of those posts and link it to credit for righteousness. The Bible never says saving faith (faith at the point of salvation, or however else you choose to describe it) is credited. Feel free to point to any verse of Scripture that says otherwise. No verse alluding to Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6 qualifies, sorry.

What one is asked to accept is this poster sees no difference between his "saving faith" and my "worthless filthy rag faith."

Then this poster asks you to accept his disinformation. What we have here is not a failure to communicate, but his willingness to obfuscate.

 

[Van]

I don't appreciate being called a false teacher, or the other unkind adjectives you are so quick to apply to those who differ with you. You might review Matthew 7:1-3 for your next devotional time, my friend.

Replying to my post you said, "Pay no attention to naysayers, who deny their own views, such God chooses those whose faith He rejects. Now this false teacher claims God chooses us by reason of faith He rejects." You attribute "rejects" to me twice although I never used the word or the concept. You want to quibble about exact quotes like "saving faith," but only in one direction. There's a name for that practice, it starts with "h" and can be found in the context of the passage above.

On and on, now this poster says he did not say God does not choose those for salvation whose faith He credits as righteousness. Pay no attention to the naysayers who deny their own views.

 

[Van]

Perhaps you are not reading my posts before you reply to them. I have repeatedly addressed the faith of Abraham which is referenced in Romans 4:23-25 and challenged you to show how it relates to the point of salvation, which is what all your quoted posts talk about. You keep tap dancing away from that challenge, "folks."

Abraham gained approval by faith, and that approval resulted in his salvation (being made perfect) after Christ died. And I indicated Romans 4:23-25 says those whose faith God credits as righteousness are saved. Otherwise those whose faith God did not credit as righteousness would be chosen through faith in the truth. Which is the absurdity being pushed by this false teacher.

 

[Tsalagi]

On and on, now this poster says he did not say God does not choose those for salvation whose faith He credits as righteousness. Pay no attention to the naysayers who deny their own views.

Another attempted diversion from your misuse of passages talking about Abraham to support your spurious notions about credit for faith at salvation. If your claims were true you could (a) cite Scripture that says God credits faith at the point of salvation as righteousness, and (b) quote a post of mine where I said anything resembling your first sentence above. You can do neither.

 

[Tsalagi]

Abraham gained approval by faith, and that approval resulted in his salvation (being made perfect) after Christ died.

The Bible does not say Abraham's approval resulted in his "salvation being made perfect after Christ died," which of course explains why you offer no passages to support this erroneous notion.

And I indicated Romans 4:23-25 says those whose faith God credits as righteousness are saved. Otherwise those whose faith God did not credit as righteousness would be chosen through faith in the truth. Which is the absurdity being pushed by this false teacher.

And I have repeatedly shown that you are misconstruing and misapplying this passage in violation of its plain meaning and context. Paul never says what you are saying, because what you are saying is wrong. Repeating your unbiblical claims without explanation or support does nothing to strengthen them.

 

[Van]

Another attempted diversion from your misuse of passages talking about Abraham to support your spurious notions about credit for faith at salvation. If your claims were true you could (a) cite Scripture that says God credits faith at the point of salvation as righteousness, and (b) quote a post of mine where I said anything resembling your first sentence above. You can do neither.

Once again Tsalagi claims God chooses individuals whose faith He did not credit as righteousness. Absurdity
Over and over I have cited Romans 4:23-25, yet Tsalagi claims this passage does not say God credits our faith, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say we are chosen through or by reason of "faith in the truth."
When does God credit our faith as righteousness, at the point of salvation or before we are placed into Christ? Before, because our "credited as righteousness faith" is the reason for our election to salvation. Romans 5:2

 

[Van]

The Bible does not say Abraham's approval resulted in his "salvation being made perfect after Christ died," which of course explains why you offer no passages to support this erroneous notion.

And I have repeatedly shown that you are misconstruing and misapplying this passage in violation of its plain meaning and context. Paul never says what you are saying, because what you are saying is wrong. Repeating your unbiblical claims without explanation or support does nothing to strengthen them.

1) Hebrews 11 does say the OT saints (which includes Abraham) obtained approval by faith.
2) Hebrews 11 does say the OT saints (which includes Abraham) had to wait to be made perfect.
3) Who are made perfect? The righteous are made perfect. Hebrews 12:23
4) How are individuals made righteous?
1Co 1:30
But by His [God's] doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Folks, the "erroneous notion" is that Abraham did not obtain approval by faith, and that approval resulted in Abraham being made perfect, which occurred after Christ died, and Abraham was put into Christ spiritually where he became the "righteous made perfect."

 

[Tsalagi]

Once again Tsalagi claims God chooses individuals whose faith He did not credit as righteousness. Absurdity
Over and over I have cited Romans 4:23-25, yet Tsalagi claims this passage does not say God credits our faith,

I did not "claim this passage does not say God credits our faith." Your characterization of my words is false and you ought to be ashamed. I said God does not credit faith for righteousness AT SALVATION. Romans 4:23-25 is NOT talking about salvation, but you are misusing and misapplying it to talk about faith at the point of salvation. Saving faith and living faith are NOT the same. You are doing exactly what Peter described: "As also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

and [Tsalagi claims] 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say we are chosen through or by reason of "faith in the truth."

This is a complete falsehood. I have not said anything at all about 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Attacking me with untruths only confirms that you have no legitimate answers when your beliefs are shown to be out of line with Scripture.

 

[Van]

I did not "claim this passage does not say God credits our faith." Your characterization of my words is false and you ought to be ashamed. I said God does not credit faith for righteousness AT SALVATION. Romans 4:23-25 is NOT talking about salvation, but you are misusing and misapplying it to talk about faith at the point of salvation. Saving faith and living faith are NOT the same. You are doing exactly what Peter described: "As also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

This is a complete falsehood. I have not said anything at all about 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Attacking me with untruths only confirms that you have no legitimate answers when your beliefs are shown to be out of line with Scripture.

Me thinks this naysayer protests too much.
Tsalagi thinks God chooses individuals for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth He chose not to credit as righteousness. I kid you not.

He denies the same individuals are the antecedent of "our" in Romans 4:24 and Romans 4:25. I kid you not.

Did anyone say "saving faith" and "living faith" are the same thing? Nope - so obfuscation on display.

Has this naysayer made any "this is what I believe" statements, or has he just said "taint so, or I never said that,"

Have I not provided the quotes for my statements? Yes. But what about 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The naysayer said God did not choose individuals for salvation through or by reason of "credited as righteousness" faith. Thus the naysayer said of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, God chose individuals for salvation through or by reason of "uncredited as righteousness" faith.

Denial based on personal incredulity is not proof.

 

[Tsalagi]

Me thinks

If only that were true.

Tsalagi thinks ... I kid you not. He denies ... I kid you not.

You quote me not, because I never said what you claim.

You have your reward. Shalom.

 

[Van]

If only that were true.
You quote me not, because I never said what you claim.
You have your reward. Shalom.

Two fallacies are commonly found around the cross of Christ, on the one hand, Easy Believism and the claim it is easy to find the narrow way that leads to life, and on the other hand, Impossible Believism and the claim the lost cannot find the narrow way that leads to life.

Both are unbiblical false doctrines and should be discarded based on a study of God's word.

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[George Antonios]

Salvation is not something we strive to enter into (Luke 13:24), that would be salvation by works. The context of Matthew 7 and Luke 13 is how believers should live, not how unbelievers should get saved.

Ignoring context is a good way to "nullify" Scripture, so let's not do that.

You are right and wrong. You're 100% right that striving would be works, and it is, but the context is eternal salvation.
It's just that Christ was teaching before the cross, and therefore under the Old Testament (Heb.9), under the law, and under the law, salvation was by faith and works; unlike in the post-cross church age when salvation is NOW by grace alone without works. As usual, dispensationalism solves these "problems".

 

[Tsalagi]

...and under the law, salvation was by faith and works

What Scripture leads you to believe eternal salvation was dependent in any way on works in the Old Testament?

 

[Van]

Two fallacies are commonly found around the cross of Christ, on the one hand, Easy Believism and the claim it is easy to find the narrow way that leads to life, and on the other hand, Impossible Believism and the claim the lost cannot find the narrow way that leads to life.

Both are unbiblical false doctrines and should be discarded based on a study of God's word.

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

One path leads to "destruction" which is what happens to those who do not find "eternal life." Thus this passage does indeed teach few find eternal life and rest take the path to destruction.

Consider Romans 3:25, Romans 3:30, Romans 3:31, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 2:8. To be saved through faith requires that faith (as credited to us by God as righteousness) provided the reason or basis for God's gracious action. Romans 5:2

The thieves have been caught, and tried, and found guilty by reason of scripture, Easy believism is unbiblical false doctrine, and Impossible Believism is unbiblical false doctrine.

Many seek and do not find, thus not "Easy" but there are a few that find, thus not "Impossible."

 

[George Antonios]

What Scripture leads you to believe eternal salvation was dependent in any way on works in the Old Testament?

Not eternal salvation per se, although we are talking about the salvation of the soul, but only leading them to Abraham's bosom until Christ's blood was shed to open up heaven.
The scriptures abound to that effect, as Paul and Moses both summarized the law as follows:
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[Tsalagi]

Two fallacies are commonly found around the cross of Christ, on the one hand, Easy Believism and the claim it is easy to find the narrow way that leads to life,

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you; For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. [Matthew 7:7-8].

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. [Matthew 11:25].

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 18:3-4].

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Romans 10:8-9].

So easy a child can do it.

 

[Tsalagi]

Not eternal salvation per se, although we are talking about the salvation of the soul, but only leading them to Abraham's bosom until Christ's blood was shed to open up heaven.
The scriptures abound to that effect, as Paul and Moses both summarized the law as follows:
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3 is addressed to believers who have already received the Spirit (vv 2-5), and Paul is explaining that living a righteous life and inheriting God's promises is not accomplished by keeping the law (as Jewish legalists were arguing at the time), but by faith.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions... if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." [Galatians 3:19, 21]

Obedience under the law resulted in physical life and blessing, not soul salvation. Ezekiel 18 makes this clear.

 

[George Antonios]

Galatians 3 is addressed to believers who have already received the Spirit (vv 2-5), and Paul is explaining that living a righteous life and inheriting God's promises is not accomplished by keeping the law (as Jewish legalists were arguing at the time), but by faith.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions... if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." [Galatians 3:19, 21]

Obedience under the law resulted in physical life and blessing, not soul salvation. Ezekiel 18 makes this clear.

Paul was quoting Leviticus 18:5. He was contrasting law and faith. the law is NOT of faith. And indeed, Ezekiel makes it clear that the question was one of spiritual life, not just physical life.

The word soul or souls shows up 6 times in that chapter:
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Now compare the following 3 verses which speak of the soul dying.:



It is the soul that lives or die. God did not say “the flesh”, or “the man”, or “the body”. To be just, we must point-out that in the O.T., before the spiritual circumcision made possible by the resurrection of Christ, the soul and the body were fused, so that the death of a soul of a living man was also the death of his body. But it was nevertheless a death of the soul as well. This is not the threat of bodily death only, it is the threat of soulish death as well. This is confirmed by the fact that Ezekiel said that that soul would die in his sin (3:20, 24; 18:24) and in his iniquity (3:18, 19; 18:18, 26) and in his trespass (18:24), and Paul described lost souls as dead in trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1).

If God had been addressing the Jews concerning physical death and life exclusively, why did he conclude the chapter with make you a new heart and a new spirit (v.31)?! Those are expressions of salvation of one’s soul, not body, as he had been saying all along. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of dying in one’s sins as a damnation of the soul (John 8:21, 24). There it is a result of unbelief, but here it is a result of works. A total of 17 works [including hath taken off his hand from the poor (v.17)] are listed in the passage and they are called duties in v.11.

No one can argue that in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live (v.22) is exclusively a reference to a long and good physical life on earth and not a reference to salvation as well: Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Christ’s words thou shalt live (v.28) is a direct answer concerning obtaining eternal life (v.25); and that’s the salvation of one’s soul! Christ himself told the lawyer that his obtaining eternal life was dependent on what the lawyer would do (v.28)!



Ezekiel 18:22 above is a quasi-replica of Leviticus 18:5 and Paul takes Leviticus 18:5 – and therefore Ezekiel 18:22 – as a doctrine to be set in opposition to New Testament salvation by faith!
You’ve seen how Ezekiel 18 opposes Pauline doctrine, but see now how it matches Jacobine [James’] doctrine:


Since Paul differs from Ezekiel, and Ezekiel matches James, we now expect Pauline doctrine to be in opposition to Jacobine doctrine, and indeed it is:


Moreover, if this promise of life were merely one of a long physical life on earth – as opposed to a promise of salvation – then the reference to the commandment to honour one’s parents is conspicuously absent, (which is the first commandment with promise ; ) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth (Eph.6:2). Certainly the fifth commandment is included within hath walked in my statutes (v.9) but just as certainly God had a reason for specifying a sin such as not coming near to a menstruous woman (v.6) yet not the commandment to honour one’s father and mother; that reason being that the warning extended beyond the mere loss of long bodily life on the earth – it was one of eternal judgment on the soul.

Salvation by grace through faith without the works of the law is only a true doctrine during the church age. Under the law, and in the tribulation, and in the millennial kingdom, salvation was and will again be by faith and works.

 

[Van]

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you; For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. [Matthew 7:7-8].

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. [Matthew 11:25].

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 18:3-4].

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Romans 10:8-9].

So easy a child can do it.

Right, that is why many seek but do not find the narrow path, and OTOH, just a few find it. However, folks that are proud, being so expert in self aggrandizement, take the broad path that eads to destruction, which is easy because many find it.