Bible "Dispensations" Examined Biblically

[ReformedBaptist]

Quick answer for now - actually, two:
I am not KJV-only. I usually use NKJV, but also use others. I don't know where you got this.
Secondly, as far as Disp. vs. Covenant Theology is concerned, it is not a case of either/or in my mind, but neither/nor. Personally I believe that both are wrong.

For the record, I am a New Covenant Baptist. For those who are unsure what type of animal that is, I wrote about it more in detail here:
http://asterisktom.xanga.com/510738968/new-covenant-theology-good-teaching-gets-a-bad-rap---and-a-bad-rep/

I read the article about NCT. I know that this is not the exact topic of this thread, but do you have any links to those who think that Jesus is the Sabbath as being Antinomian?

I recently was a member at a Baptist church that was Sabbatarian in their theology and it became a sticking point for them with me, but I have not claimed any NCT beleif before.

 

[thomas15]

Hello. I would say that Berkhof you can still get good use out of significant parts of.
Chafer, personally, I would round file. Or use for reference for articles.

OK, OK Tom. I'll do it pronto.

Now please, what else should I do to get my life in order? More college, seminary, trade school?

Thanks good buddy

Thomas

 

[ReformedBaptist]

OK, OK Tom. I'll do it pronto.

Now please, what else should I do to get my life in order? More college, seminary, trade school?

Thanks good buddy

Thomas

I would suggest growing up.

 

[swaimj]

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

I don't disagree with this verse at all. I've never met a dispensationalist who did.

Let me ask a question: Prior to the flood, men were not allowed to kill and eat animals. After the flood, God told Noah that men could eat animals. Then, God told Moses that there were restrictions on what animals people could eat. Then, Jesus taught, followed by the teaching of the apostles that all meat was clean to eat. So, the instructions from God about eating meat changed over time. This is not a case of God changing, for that would contradict the verse above; a verse upon which we all agree. Rather this is a case of a change in.....?

 

[just-want-peace]

Although I call myself a "dispensationalist" (of sorts), I do not like the term "dispensation". I call my self such out of honesty so people will know where I stand concerning eschatology (or at least a pretty close approximation).

I prefer the term "age" rather than dispensation because the phrase "dispensation" (at least in English) is too limiting and can also be confusing.

e.g. If you eat pork and go to "church" on Sunday rather than the Sabbath you are in the age of Grace and not the Law. This is far wider in scope and implication than a change of "dispensation" or a "new economy".

Same for when Christ comes to rule and reign for 1000 years (assuming the Millenium or Chiliad of Revelation 20 is a literal 1000 years).

Same for the eternal state.

Another thing is that while elements of "dispensationalism" have existed from the early Church (included those convoluted arguments concerning Daniel 2, 7, etc...) many have held some "wild and crazy" ideas.

The fact is that so-called dispensationalism has an intense focus on eschatology which only now seems to be coming into its own much as Trinitarianism developed in the first 3-4 centuries of the church, but unlike Trinitarianism, echatology is still in an undisciplined, unsubdued state even after these nearly 2000 years and far from having the precise dogma and general agreement of Trintarianism.

Personally, I don't belittle the eschatological views of other Christians who are sincerely trying to make sense of "things to come" or "things past (preterists)".

You know, I may be wrong and if I'm nice I won't have to eat so much crow when we meet in the air (or not) .

HankD

Would that a few more around here had such an honest perception of their actual grasp of TRUTH !!!

Unfortunately, there are several here who see their views as all-in-all, and if you don't agree, well, you're just -- you pick the adjective!!:BangHead:

 

[asterisktom]

OK, OK Tom. I'll do it pronto.

Now please, what else should I do to get my life in order? More college, seminary, trade school?

Thanks good buddy

Thomas

This may be taken in the wrong spirit with some in this group here but I will tell you what I did for a good while - stayed away from study Bibles for a real long time. I'm serious. I used to read a lot from Bibles like Thompson Chain Reference, Zondervan, etc., but found that they would often lead me astray in interpretation. BTW, I would even say things like paragraph divisions, paragraph titles (I am certainly ready to give examples of all these, if interested), and capitalizations also often can be great misleaders.

I guess I wouldn't want to give back my time at BJU, even though I learned some bad theology alongside good Bible training. Personally, I wouldn't recommend Bible school for most people.

Getting back to Study Bibles: I thought "As long I am Reformed I guess I better get a Reformed study Bible." So I got the one from RC Sproul and also read some from MacArthur. But I was surprised to find notes in there that just didn't jive with what I see in Scripture. In the case of MacArthur it was his eschatology; in the case of the other it was all the Covenant Theology trappings that, at one point try as I may, I just couldn't buy.

I know it comes across as pious and a "just-me-and-the-Bible" kind of religion, but spending lots of time in just Bible study, comparing cross-references, praying and reading some more is the way to go. I really do think that that is one of the biggest problems for Christendom today is that strong desire to affiliate with a system, and to seek out a spiritual authority.

 

[asterisktom]

I read the article about NCT. I know that this is not the exact topic of this thread, but do you have any links to those who think that Jesus is the Sabbath as being Antinomian?

I recently was a member at a Baptist church that was Sabbatarian in their theology and it became a sticking point for them with me, but I have not claimed any NCT beleif before.

Maybe you saw something they didn't see. Of course, Sabbatarianism is the textbook antithesis of believing that Christ is the Sabbath. Those who understand this point about the Sabbath can rest in Christ on the Sabbath (as well as the other six), knowing that the Sabbath itself pointed to Christ.

About your first question: All I can think of off-hand is Richard Barcello. He has often written and preached against us "antinomian" NCTers.

 

[asterisktom]

Although I call myself a "dispensationalist" (of sorts), I do not like the term "dispensation". I call my self such out of honesty so people will know where I stand concerning eschatology (or at least a pretty close approximation).

I prefer the term "age" rather than dispensation because the phrase "dispensation" (at least in English) is too limiting and can also be confusing.

e.g. If you eat pork and go to "church" on Sunday rather than the Sabbath you are in the age of Grace and not the Law. This is far wider in scope and implication than a change of "dispensation" or a "new economy".

Same for when Christ comes to rule and reign for 1000 years (assuming the Millenium or Chiliad of Revelation 20 is a literal 1000 years).

Same for the eternal state.

Another thing is that while elements of "dispensationalism" have existed from the early Church (included those convoluted arguments concerning Daniel 2, 7, etc...) many have held some "wild and crazy" ideas.

The fact is that so-called dispensationalism has an intense focus on eschatology which only now seems to be coming into its own much as Trinitarianism developed in the first 3-4 centuries of the church, but unlike Trinitarianism, echatology is still in an undisciplined, unsubdued state even after these nearly 2000 years and far from having the precise dogma and general agreement of Trintarianism.

Personally, I don't belittle the eschatological views of other Christians who are sincerely trying to make sense of "things to come" or "things past (preterists)".

You know, I may be wrong and if I'm nice I won't have to eat so much crow when we meet in the air (or not) .

HankD

I guess I should answer the last item first. I hope no one feels offended or belittled when I present my understanding of the truth.

Also, I am not as interested in the sincere efforts of others to understand the truth as I am of the truth itself. For me, personally, I would much prefer being taught the truth from an insincere person than being lulled into staying with the same falsehood by sincerely wrong friends.

That is how I stayed in dispensationalism for twenty years; taught it, preached it - I learned it from good, sincere friends that I looked up to as experts. Many of these I have still kept as friends - just not as mentors.

BTW, I agree with you that "ages" is a better term to use than dispensations. I do believe in Jesus' "this age" and the "age to come", the this age being the Jewish times, the age to come being the church age.

I don't believe in a Millennial reign of 1000 years, requiring God to build again those things which He already had broken down and obsoleted: The middle wall of partition, the Levitical priesthood, laws and ordinances.

 

[HankD]

I guess I should answer the last item first. I hope no one feels offended or belittled when I present my understanding of the truth.

Also, I am not as interested in the sincere efforts of others to understand the truth as I am of the truth itself. For me, personally, I would much prefer being taught the truth from an insincere person than being lulled into staying with the same falsehood by sincerely wrong friends.

That is how I stayed in dispensationalism for twenty years; taught it, preached it - I learned it from good, sincere friends that I looked up to as experts. Many of these I have still kept as friends - just not as mentors.

BTW, I agree with you that "ages" is a better term to use than dispensations. I do believe in Jesus' "this age" and the "age to come", the this age being the Jewish times, the age to come being the church age.

I don't believe in a Millennial reign of 1000 years, requiring God to build again those things which He already had broken down and obsoleted: The middle wall of partition, the Levitical priesthood, laws and ordinances.

That last sentence makes an excellent point Tom.

That is one place where I disagree with some dispensationalists who teach that animal blood sacrifice will be re-instituted in the Millenium.

I believe they attempt to draw too much from the OT and apply it to the Millenium (Chiliad) and "the camp of the saints"
of Revelation 20.

Personally I believe that the Millenium will be another "age" unlike the Law or the Church age but perhaps with elements from both.
Again, this is an area and don't have a "dogmatic" view apart from the length of time because of the use of the definite article with "the thousand years". Many of the early church fathers took this 1000 year reign as literal (Not that their interpretation makes it a sure thing) primarily I made the choice to see this as literal because of the grammar, syntax and context of the Scripture involved.

And your gentlemanly manner is appreciated brother Tom is.


Thanks
HankD

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Maybe you saw something they didn't see. Of course, Sabbatarianism is the textbook antithesis of believing that Christ is the Sabbath. Those who understand this point about the Sabbath can rest in Christ on the Sabbath (as well as the other six), knowing that the Sabbath itself pointed to Christ.

About your first question: All I can think of off-hand is Richard Barcello. He has often written and preached against us "antinomian" NCTers.

Thanks. I am not sure I saw something they did not, but I am sure I did not see what they saw about a Sunday Sabbath.

 

[asterisktom]

That last sentence makes an excellent point Tom.

That is one place where I disagree with some dispensationalists who teach that animal blood sacrifice will be re-instituted in the Millenium.

I believe they attempt to draw too much from the OT and apply it to the Millenium (Chiliad) and "the camp of the saints"
of Revelation 20.

Personally I believe that the Millenium will be another "age" unlike the Law or the Church age but perhaps with elements from both.
Again, this is an area and don't have a "dogmatic" view apart from the length of time because of the use of the definite article with "the thousand years". Many of the early church fathers took this 1000 year reign as literal (Not that their interpretation makes it a sure thing) primarily I made the choice to see this as literal because of the grammar, syntax and context of the Scripture involved.

And your gentlemanly manner is appreciated brother Tom is.


Thanks
HankD

Thank you, Hank. I am trying to be kind in what I write. And, yes, I know what it is like to have to eat words, so I try to avoid overstating my case - like I seem to have done with Finney having invented the altar call.

I know that some don't like it when someone is sure on things they are either unsure of or adamantly against. But it would be hypocrisy for me to pretend to uncertainty out of misplaced consideration for others. The things I am sure about I present as such. I spent fiften or so years being sure of dispensationalism - then another 10 years in a theological DMZ. Now I am praying for a good run of many years studying, teaching, and writing on these wonderful truths of the doctrines of graces.

 

[HankD]

Thank you, Hank. I am trying to be kind in what I write. And, yes, I know what it is like to have to eat words, so I try to avoid overstating my case - like I seem to have done with Finney having invented the altar call.

I know that some don't like it when someone is sure on things they are either unsure of or adamantly against. But it would be hypocrisy for me to pretend to uncertainty out of misplaced consideration for others. The things I am sure about I present as such. I spent fiften or so years being sure of dispensationalism - then another 10 years in a theological DMZ. Now I am praying for a good run of many years studying, teaching, and writing on these wonderful truths of the doctrines of graces.

Im sure the Lord will bless...

HankD