Bible not perfect

Tam,

Static means to be fixed or stationary. In a somewhat more informal use, it implies a certain level of obsolescense. (as in, static technology)

Stable, otoh, does not imply a lack of movement. Rather, it implies being slow to sudden movement. (as in, a stable currency)

A static economy would be bad. A stable economy would be good.

 

Mark 16-17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
============================================

Many manuscripts do not have this passage and so it is not a good idea to use as a basis for doctrine and there is evidence some of these verses were added in. Bottom line -- we are not sure it was in the original autographs. Also, even it it was, one can argue that it was to apply to the apostles and believers in the early church, such as Paul being bitten by the snake later and living. If this were true today, then we should all be handling snakes (as they do in the snake handling churches) and have no fear of drinking poison. These were sign gifts to show those who had followed Jesus, if this was really in the original (as far as snakes and poison go).

Now we have the complete canon of scripture, which they did not have in the early church. No letter to the early churches mentions or encourages casting out demons, handling snakes, or drinking poison to show they are followers of Christ. The gifts in 1 Cor. 12 do not mention casting out demons, handling snakes, or drinking poison, either, leading to a reasonable conclusion that such things were for a limited time, if at all, or added in to this passage with the gifts of healing and tongues (speaking known languages).

However, I would like to emphasize that I do not believe in dividing over the sign gifts. I have brothers and sisters in Christ who do believe the sign gifts are for today.

 

**There is no biblical evidence of miracles being performed today.(Mark 16:17-20, Acts 20:11-13, John 11). **

You want BIBLICAL evidence that miracles are going on today? That's a strange request. Do you want a chapter and verse that gives today's date and says that a miracle will occur on that date? I can't give you any 'Biblical evidence' that someone got saved this week.

The Bible doesn't give us dates of when everything would happen. The Bible tells us how people get saved. If people are still responding to the Gospel as the scripture teaches, we know that people are getting saved. The Bible teaches that the Spirit gives gifts to the church. That's what the Bible teaches so we should believe it.


**There is no credible evidence to believe the dead are raised, the blind are made to see and the lame walk**

Formerly lame people who walk disagree with you. I was in a small-group discussion one time with a woman who had been in a wheelchair for years who was healed by God. She went to a church that didn't believe in healing. People started talking about her when she was healed, claiming she'd just been pretending to be cripled for all of those years.

***II Tim. 3:16,17 includes all scripture, not just the old testament. This is exactly what the text says. I Cor. 13 does not imply that all are spiritually immature without the written revelation, only that it was necessary for a permanent record be written to ensure the abiltiy of future generations to be steadfast and faithful to the laws and commands of God.***

The problem is that I Corinthians doesn't say anything about this permanent written record. In I corinthains 13, Paul says,

*** In essence, mankind for all times could not be spiritually mature without a permanent record. This truth was by the design and plan of God. The text of I Corinthians teaches this.***

The text doesn't say anythign about mankind. Paul talks about 'I' and 'we.' Aside from the fact that this intepretation doesn't have much to do with the text, can you honestly say that mankind is so mature now that the Bible is completed that it makes mankind in the first century seem like children? Was the middle ages that much more mature than the first century? Was mankind more mature when some of the most severe persecutions against the church were going on after John had written Revelation?

Are individual Christians spiritually mature just from having the copy? Or even from reading it? Paul would probably have considered the Gentiles mentioned in Romans 2, who had not the law, who did the things contained in the law to be more 'mature' than a Jew who had the law but did not follow it.

** Please note that tongues were to cease, prophecies would fail, and all these things would be end when the perfect came. ( I Cor. 13:8-10).**

Do you believe the verse abou the two witnesses prophesying, recorded in the book of Revelation, has been fulfilled yet?


**I say this with all kindness to those who believe in the miraculous endowments of the spirit, if they have what the apostles have, they should do what they did. They can meet the biblical proof of these gifts by raising one dead person from the grave.If they do this, I will be the first to affirm these gifts are for today. **

This reminds em of Thomas' statement.

I doubt the apostles raised the dead on demand. This quote from you is telling. What it tells me is that the reason you don't believe in miracles today is not really and truly because you are persuaded by scripture. If scripture really taught that miracles could not occur today, and you saw one, then, if you really believed in the scriptures you woudldn't believe in miracles still. It would seem the reason you don't believe in miracles occuring these days is because you haven't ever seen them. Isn't this basing beliefs on experience, or lack thereof, instead of on the word of God. Why would God have you see a miracle if you don't believe that He would do them? I suppose He could, but if Jesus couldn't do many mighty miracles in Nazarreth because of their unbelief, then we should believe if we ask God to do miracles? Jesus did show Himself to Thomas, but God is under no obligation to answer oru requests if we don't believe. Try this. Believe the Bible when it says God gives gifts, including the working of miracles, to the bdy of Christ. If you already have faith that God is willing to do miracles, then ask God for these spiritual gifts to be poured out on yourself and others to build up the body of Christ and to reach out to unbelievers.

 

A couple of comments on this:
1. Perfect means complete in this passage, and in most places in the NT. The canon of scripture -- the Bible -- is complete.
2. Our translations are not "perfect" in the sense of being without fault, but I absolutely and postively believe God's word is inerrant in the original autographs.

 

Tam:

The scriptures posted are in the context to those who had already had proof and rejected it. Are you a Pharisee?
Moreover, faith is always based on EVIDENCE. John 20:31. Miraculous power was used as evidence for our faith.
It was absolutely essential for one who spoke as a mouth piece for God prove his message. ( Mark 16:20). However, once a message has been confirmed. It need not be authenticated contnuously. We have written evidence these things were done. ( John 20:31). Furthermore, the one and only way one could receive the miraculous gifts, according to the bible was through the laying on of the aposltes hands.( Acts 8:18). Have you seen Peter, James, John or any of the apostles lately?
I have issued this challenge to all so called modern day miracle workers. Raise one person from the dead, make one lame man walk, make one blind man see or speak in a language he does not know, and I will believe these things exist today. To date, I have had no takers. I am not surprised. By the way, miracles were performed in the presence of unbelievers to prove the word of God and form faith. Miraculous power did not require the one observing the miracle to have faith. It is strange that those who claim the power stil exist do not do as the apostles did. I say this kindly but if they had what the apostles had they would do what the apostles did. If the proof has changed for today, who changed it?

 

Tam, why is it when faced with a challenge you deliberately avoid it. Frank made an excellent post. If the gifts are for today, then take up Frank's challenge and give evidence for the "gifts" that you claim are for today. He has mentioned several, that he claims there are no evidence of having occurred in this day and age. Instead of insulting him by calling (or inferring that he is the unbeliever), "prove your own selves" by giving evidence of these things. If you can't give evidence then we can rightly conclude that these gifts have ceased.
DHK

 

So what you are saying is that because Frank does not see these gifts taking place he is part of an evil and unbelieving generation, and thus an unbeliever. That would hold true for me, Briguy, Lorelei, Walguy, Dr. Bob Griffin, and most others that post on this board. In fact what you are really saying is that we all are unbelievers, and only you and those that are associated with your little group are the only real believers in this world. You have been challenged to give evidence of the reality of the gifts but cannot. You just resort to calling us all unbelievers instead. It sounds like you belong to a cult; that is the mark of one.
This has nothing to do with "our unbelief." It has everything to do with your inability to provide evidence outside of your own claims which you fail to produce. One who makes claims and fails to substantiate them is a fraud. If you can't substantiate your claims, then we can only conclude that you are a fraud. Back up your claims and stop calling every one else on the board unbelievers!!
DHK

 

This passage is talking about false teachers and lists several other characteristics along with this verse. Denying the power here means that one is acting like a Christian but is not one and denies the power of the Holy Spirit. By posting this and saying some on this board are like this, you are implying that those who believe the sign gifts have ceased may fall into this category. This is a very serious charge as you are accusing us of being unbelievers, false teachers and against God. I have been regenerated by the HS since the moment I trusted Christ in late 1990; God delivered me out of very dark evil.

I would like to ask that you retract that statement that it describes some on this board. That is uncalled for.

 

Tam:

My challenge was a sincere one. Those who have the miraculous power must be able to prove it. (I Thes. 5:21). If one could not and cannot prove his message, it would be hypothetically possible for one to claim to be Christ or an inspired spokeman of God and maintian some sort of legitimacy because there would not be a standard by which to make an objective judgment. A thought I find repugnant.

However, by testing modern day miracle workers one may know the truth. Please note this is a biblical concept. The Bible says in Revelation 2:2, I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

QUESTION: What was the test( thou hast tried them) that indicted to these first century Christians that which was being taught had no divine power, authority, was not true, and was evil?
Who were the liars?
How did they know?

I do believe in the power of God. (Romans 1:16, James 1:18,21, I Pet. 1:1-5). However, my faith will not be built upon the sinking sand of speculation and unsubstatiated assertions.

Again, I meant no personal harm to anyone who believes in the miraculous power for today. However, it appears some have taken my boldness as a personal attack. This is not, and was not my intention.

Moreover, the implication I am a unbeliever, heathen, godless person, is one of the primary reasons I do not engage in apologetics on this board as much as I used too. That is not to say, this is not a good place for open discussion. It is! Overall, the moderators do a superior job in policing ad hominem attacks. My hat is off to them. However, at times discussions of this nature quickly become very volatile and inappropraite words are used to make the discussion personal. This is caused, to a large degree, by biblical ignorance or theological prejudice. I understand this, and will continue to monitor and regulate my participation as a result.

I consider myself a welcomed guest on this board. It is my intention to remain seen in that light.

Sincerely,
Frank

 

Frank,

Your message presents two views that don't seem to agree with each other. One view is that once a message is 'confirmed' then it not longer needs confirmation. The other is that miracles were don't to from faith in unbelievers.

If the 'confirmation' of the word is directed toward unbelievers, then it doesn't make sense to say that once the word is confirmed, that it doesn't need confirming anymore. Talking or writing about a miracle that happened does not have the same effect as seeing miracles with ones own eyes. If it did, then the paostles could just have talked about Jesus miracles, and not done any themselves.

The line of reasoning that says that miracles were to confirm the Bible as a book, if that is where you are going, has no scriptural support that I can find.

You also say that the only way one could receive 'miraculous gifts' was through the laying on of the hands of the apostles. First, I don't care for your terminology since 'working of miracles' is used to describe one specific gift. Second, the text you refer to does not warrant the broad conclusion you have drawn, and your assertion contradicts scripture. Gifts were clearly given apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles. In Acts 10, those with Cornelius' spoke in tongues when Peter was speaking to them. It is unlikely he was laying hands on them as he preached. I Corinthians 14:13 indicates that it is possible to receive the gift of interpretation of tongues through prayer, whether or not an apostle is present. We also see that God is able to appoint new apostles who can lay hands on people without succession from the Twelve. Paul and Barnabas are an example. I Corinthians 12 says that the gifts are given as the Spirit wills, not because an apostle laid hands on someone.

Can gifts be given through the laying on of hands of an apostle? Yes. But Timothy received a gift through prohecy, with the laying on of hands of the elers. Prophets and teachers laid hands on Paul and Barnabas.

Before the apostles were appointed, God empowered men to prophesy and do miracles. There is no scripture to indicate that He restricted Himself to only giving these gifts through the apostles after they were appointed.

 

tamborine lady:

You have not read your Bible very well because the only people Jesus ever condemned were the religious people of the day--the pharisees.

Usually one doesn't see himself very well. They usually must pick the log out of their own eye first before noticing the speck in another's.

It is a well known fact that most people condemn in others what is true in them.

Try applying the scripture to yourself first and give us some of that humility that Jesus so clearly demonstrated.

 

I often think the exact same thing when reading this forum!
Gina

 

Link:

The Bible says in John 20:31 that miracles were done and these were WRITTEN that ye might believe. This may defy your personal reasoning, but it does not change the inspired truth. You must either accept it or reject it. (John 12:48).

Again, If I prove I am Frank. The doctor delivers me to my biological parents. He records the birth. Do I have to be born again under the same conditions to have my identity authenticated? Of course not. I need not have it authenticated again. I have a birth certificate that provides authenticity forever as to my identity. This is a simple concept to understand.

 

DHK:
I appreciate your comments in this matter.