Featured Bible Study = "going to Church" aka Corporate Worship

If the church elects elders (leaders) then by logical necessity a church must exist to elect said leaders. Three or four lay families can meet together to break bread, pray, study and worship.

At issue is the Baptist distinctive of the priesthood of believers.

It seems there maybe several Presbyterians in our midst.

 

Why does a church have to elect elders? There is more of a NT precedent for elders appointing elders than anything else. Paul did it. And Paul tells other elders to do it.

Act 14:23 And when they [Paul and Barnabas] had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Tit 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—

In case you were curious, those commands in Titus 1:5 are 2nd person singular directed to Titus.



As to the "called" issue, I'm not denying that all are called to serve Christ. I am affirming that not all are called in the same way, in the same capacity, and in the same ministry. God does not implant in all the desire to oversee or pastor or elder a church. Those with that "calling" (lack of a better term) have been charged w/ teaching as well as watch over the souls of their flock. Such a ministry is very much entrenched in healthy church body life. Excluding the eldership from the flock is as helpful as excluding the shepherd from watching out for the sheep. Call it a flock all you want, but flocks require shepherds. Churches require elders.

 

Paul and Barnabas were not church elders they were apostles. They appointed them because they started the churches. Most likely there were no other elders already in place to even appoint anyone.

In our day and age while elders may nominate elders the church should confirm these men are of the Lord.

 

But since such confirmations are part of the qualifications of elders, isn't that implicit in the elders appointing other elders?

This thread is not about church government. A biblical case can be made for nearly all kinds of governments. My point as it pertains to this thread is that a church is no church if it is not led by men who have been charged by God to watch over the souls of the flock - elders.

I work at a Christian school. They try so hard to be a church, even administering the Lord's Supper once. I refuse b/c none of these people have been called to watch for my soul. They are not a church. Just b/c we get together and read the Bible or pray doesn't make it church.

 

Not if it does not include the confirmation of the church body.

 

If you look at my siggie, I believe in a plurality of elders. So this would not be an issue except in extreme cases. And your scenario also presents one of the flaws of the sole pastor model of church. However, in that case, I would not say that the church is no longer valid. My guess is that it is run by a board of deacons who are actually fulfilling the role of elders more than they even realize. So all is good.

As to your situation as interim, what made 3 women a church? Because they had a building and it was still incorporated as a 501c3 entity? There are times when churches need to shut their doors, back up, and wait to restart.

If the church model was based on shepherds and sheep, then what do you call a pasture of sheep w/out of a shepherd? Dinner for predators for one. But wild for another. Just as there is no church w/out Jesus as its head and chief shepherd (the real senior pastor), there is no local church w/out elders-overseers-pastors leading it. Your situations are the very VERY rare exceptions. The OP was asking about something more normative.

 

Based on what BIblical passage? My contention is that one who has passed some test or confirmation has met the qualifications and thus can be appointed by the elders. That test is that such a person has risen from within the congregation and shown himself to be a qualified leader. There is no vote, per se. Just an recognition of a man's gift to lead. But you will be hard pressed to find a passage in the NT that speaks of a congregation appointing elders.

 

You will be hard pressed to find an example of elders appointing elders. However, you have found apostles appointing elders. Since there is no one alive who qualifies as an apostle we either have to figure something else out or not have anyone qualified to appoint them.

 

Um... I gave you a passage already. Paul tells Titus (an elder) to appoint more elders.

 

OK is that it? Should we also sell all that we have and share it with other Christians?

We have got to be careful of taking examples of what they did as if it is a command. It's not.

 

Word Study G5500, cheirotoneō

Here we have a compound word, literally meaning hand stretching. But the word is used to indicate taking a vote by a show of hands to select someone for something.

Acts 14:23, When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Here, this rendering misses the information of how the elders were selected, i.e. by a show of hands, a vote of the members. A far more complete translation would read, When they had selected elders for them by a show of hands in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

2 Corinthians 8:19 and not only this, but he has also been appointed by the churches to travel with us in this gracious work, which is being administered by us for the glory of the Lord Himself, and to show our readiness,

Again the vote is obliterated in the rendering, whereas a literal translation would read, “but he has also been selected by a show of hands by the churches….”

Yes, Titus 1:5 does tell Titus to "put in charge" Elders, but does not specify the manner other than "as I directed you." Thus, the manner could be selection by a show of hands.

And all Christians are called to "watch out for" our brothers and sisters in Christ.

All this effort to create the need for a "special priesthood" is bogus.

 

This is not just a passage from Acts that can be difficult to determine if it is prescriptive or descriptive. This is from a letter from Paul. You go in this direction, and where do you stop? Titus 1:5 is sufficient for me.

 

Van and his word studies.

Lexical fallacy anyone?

The "they" in Acts 14:23 is Paul and Barnabas. They are the subjects of the verb "appoint". So even if Van were correct in his understanding of the Greek word (which he is not), it would still be a vote from 2 guys. So essentially not a vote at all.

And not all Christians are charged with the care of every other Christians' souls. Just as teachers have a high calling and warning for that ministry, so also do pastor/elder/overseer. Thus their qualifications. Thus their special ministry of watching over the souls of those they are charged to lead.

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

For further demonstration that this word Van likes to abuse came to simply mean appoint, Josephus uses the word for God's appointing of Saul as king. No vote. Just God's appointment.

This sources comes from LSJ which says (link here),

 

So folks, if they do not like the inherent historical word meanings found in lexicons, they seek to nullify them by making bogus charges. No meat, just the charge. If the action of Paul and Barnabas is to select by a show of hands, then the whole body of believers would be included.

Next we get the idea that not all Christians are charged with the "care" of fellow believers. If Christ was in His grave, He would be rolling. To deny we are charged with loving, caring, comforting, bearing, and so forth is simply unbelievably ludicrous.

Next,the fact that scripture describes how to establish leaders within our local assemblies, is ignored, and a non-germane argument is made for the need to treat leaders, like we are to treat all our brothers and sisters in Christ, with love and respect, considering them more important than ourselves. We are to build them up, not tear them down.

I see Greektim has found a lexicon which says appoint rather than elect or select by vote.

(Robertson Word Pictures)

 

REally? No meat? The fact is, words change over the years... as in your argument is queer. Just like the one you want to mean "vote" so badly. But your problem isn't just a lexical fallacy. You made a grammatical error.

This is the grammatical error. The subject of the verb performs the actions. So if we were to push the meaning of hand raising, it would be limited to the subject. In this case, that is Paul and Barnabas.Meaty enough for you? I see you neglected to deal with this above. Sounds like I got all the meat and you are the fruit in this basket.

Or... you are trying to alter the meaning again and imply that the action is not the raising of hands but the choice based on the raising of hands (leaving the final appointment not in the hands of the vote but the leaders). Either way, you still have a subject/object issue.

If you read carefully, you would see I didn't deny that Christians are to care for other Christians. But I did say that they are not all charged w/ watching over each others' souls. I quoted Scripture from Hb. 13:17. Those leaders are held to a higher standard thus implying a higher duty beyond the basics to which you are referring.

By the way, I'll let the evidence speak for itself and let the reader decide. The fact that I cite a legit lexicon as well as extra outside sources in which this word was used generally whereas Van relies on Strong's is telling in and of itself.

 

For Tim:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/baptist_1689.html

Confession 26:9

The way appointed by Christ for the calling of any person, fitted and gifted by the Holy Spirit, unto the office of bishop or elder in a church, is, that he be chosen thereunto by the common suffrage of the church itself;16 and solemnly set apart by fasting and prayer, with imposition of hands of the eldership of the church, if there be any before constituted therein;17 and of a deacon that he be chosen by the like suffrage, and set apart by prayer, and the like imposition of hands.18
16 Acts 14:23
17 1 Tim. 4:14
18 Acts 6:3,5,6