Bible teaches total abstinence from alcoholic beverages

When I see churches prohibiting alcohol and treating women like secondary objects. It makes me wonder what the difference is between taking the next step and replacing Jesus Christ with Muhammad and embracing Islam to the full extent.

It is perfectly obvious that Alcoholic wine was used by New Testament people. Yet the Apostle Peter warns in Acts 15:10 that there are some amongst the church that seek to place extra yokes upon the bretheren. Be carefull of man made "extras". The Gospel is complete in Jesus Christ.

 

I agree, I suppose that is why I don't have to soak the scriptures in elderberry wine. I take them strait. I still cannot understand why the risk of offending others with drinking is worth it's pleasures, I suppose I never will. I suppose I will also never understand how some feel it Biblical to boast of their liberty in the presence of many who feel very strongly about the issue. There are issues in which I will feel perfectly fine doing that others will not but I will not rub my liberty in anyones face. If the one who objects to a person exercising their liberty is wrong then they will one day discover they were too strict but if the opposite is true I feel those flaunting their liberty will be held accountable. Murph

 

Ben, I probably don't need to point out that this is the Fundy forum, so I won't.

The people who treat women like secondary objects are those who want to make them into men. True fundies recognize that men and women have different roles (that is why mommy gives birth and not daddy). They are created equal but different.

A local church has the right to require that members refrain from alchohol. It is called the autonomy of the church. That would be a Baptist distinctive.

Last I checked, there is a big difference between Christ and Mohammed. Do not ever make such a blasphemous reference to our savior on this forum again. I am not impressed at your lack of discernment between Jesus Christ and Mohammed. Fundamentalists desire to understand God by taking into account his revelation to man, the Bible. If this makes you uncomfortable, there are plenty of other forums to participate in.

 

I still cannot understand why the risk of offending others with drinking is worth it's pleasures, I suppose I never will.

Simple: if by "offending" you mean "causing to become upset," that is not what the Bible warns about. Jesus never worried about offending the Pharisees; the Gospel itself is an offense. God save us from touchy-feely religiosity.

If by "offending" you mean the Biblical definition of "causing to sin," then your concerns have already been addressed, whether you choose to acknowlege it or not.

I suppose I will also never understand how some feel it Biblical to boast of their liberty in the presence of many who feel very strongly about the issue.

Boasting of liberty is a two-way street. I could say the same thing about teetotallers boasting of their liberty in the presence of many who feel strongly about the issue.

 

I don't understand how mentioning that you make wine or drink moderately is "boasting" of liberty. The Bible mentions quite matter of factly that Jesus made wine and drank it moderately--how can one be wrong (or offensive) by simply matter of factly mentioning that they do likewise?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic to you, Murphy. I just really don't understand your stand on this issue. If you agree that there is nothing intrinsically evil about wine (and I think I understand that you believe this), then how can someone simply mentioning that they drink wine moderately be anymore offensive than someone mentioning that they abstain?

I am thinking that this might partly be a cultural difference. I do notice that there seems to be a bit of breakdown here along US/nonUS lines. I attend a fairly conservative Baptist church, but I really don't know anyone that would be offended if they came to my house and saw a bottle of wine on the kitchen counter....

 

Hello Murph,
The herbal qualities of the Elder are well known to aid recovery from chest complaints. "I appreciate your description of the lovely time you have drinking. "
When suffering from chesty, or sinus complaints milk and other dairy produce should be avoided, so Cocoa is out I`m afraid, and as 1 bottle of elderberry wine lasts me about 3 months, I don`t think the above quote applies.

 

russell55 said:

I attend a fairly conservative Baptist church, but I really don't know anyone that would be offended if they came to my house and saw a bottle of wine on the kitchen counter....

This does appear to be the case. My church is also as conservative as they come, but of the last three locales at which I have attended house parties hosted by fellow churchgoers, the decor has always included some kind of wine rack with no effort to hide it (as if you could). It seems that in this regard I am the most "conservative" of my friends, because my wine is kept in the cool, dark closet, where it belongs.

 

I don't agree, IMHO whatever the item be it drinking or dancing the one who promotes it is the only one who can boast of liberty. If I abstain from a certain thing I am not exercising my liberty but rather my restraint.
Murph

 

That's sort of my point. It may be more of a cultural thing--not necessarily southern, but more USA vs. non USA.

My church is indeed conservative. I'm not sure you could find a church in my town where consumption of wine was taboo. (There might be one--I'm not sure--but they are what I would consider a cult--they are not orthodox in their beliefs.) I know individual Christians who chose not to drink, but they all seem to accept that it is okay for other Christians to drink in moderation, and are not offended by those who do.

Anyway, I can't see how simply stating that one consumes alcohol moderately is "promoting" drinking. Promoting drinking would be saying to someone, "Hey! I drink the occasional glass of wine. Why don't you? C'mon, abstainence is silly! Quit being such a party pooper!" And I haven't seen anyone do that here.

 

In my view I feel that the Bible tells us not to do things that could cause offense or cause someone to stumble. As I have stated before the way some people post here about their drinking habits I feel is not showing grace to posters who feel that alcohol consumption is taboo. I also do not agree with the view of some that the decision of whether someone is offended lies with the offender. I feel the bible teaches us to be very cautious so as to avoid harming someone. I have two responsibilities as moderator. #1 To ensure that posters of differing views don't purposely antagonize each other. #2 that lost people or new Christians who may read our posts will not be led astray. I feel that in some cases if a person who believes drinking is o.k. and makes statements like " I am headed down to the pub to drink a pint" can seem like an attack to some. I also believe that a person who is a new believer and may have struggled with alcohol who reads some of these comments might be encouraged to continue their drinking instead of laying the habit down. So what do I do about these responsibilities? I could say no more threads on drinking or I could say any one who I feel is boasting of their liberty to drink will be warned and their post edited. In fact I have edited similar remarks earlier in this thread so I think that is what I will do, feel free to discuss this issue but I will view tales of drinking as subject matter that needs to be removed.
Murph

 

Murph,

Thank you for your response. I'm still not sure I completely understand it, but I'll leave it at that.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in what I wrote. It wouldn't be the anti-drinking stance (if they have one--I'm not sure) that made the one church I am thinking of unorthodox--it would be their anti-trinitarian stance. I am just trying to explain to you that some of us live in other countries, and that the view of drinking even in the most conservative churches where we live is different than what I gather it is in most conservative churches in the states. We may very well be able to drink wine occasionally without anyone in our churches thinking much one way or the other about it. I was simply trying to explain that we may be living in a different cultural climate, even among Christians, and as evidence of that I point to the fact that in my small town there are only about 4 churches I would ever consider attending--the others are either Catholic, Pretty Stinkin' Liberal or Really Stinkin' Liberal or Oneness Pentacostal--and I don't believe any of those 4 more conservative churches ask for abstainence from their members. It is just simply a non-issue, unless (I suppose) there is a lack of moderation on someone's part.

I don't want to start a fight either. I'm just trying to explain that some of us may come from different cultural climates on this issue, and our circumstances may be different, and what is viewed as right or wrong on this issue even in the very conservative churches we attend may be quite a bit different than the opinions of those who attend very conservative churches in the states. A little understanding of these differences and a little grace on both sides of the issue might be a good thing.

 

Why do you assume that their decision not to drink is a "wrong doctrine"?

The verses that come to mind that say that all speak about the essentials of the faith. This is hardly an essential.

Drinking in moderation is not condemned anywhere in the Bible (at least not that I can find and all of the anti drinking verses taht you guys have shown are about drunkenness, not moderation.

While drinking to excess is condemned in the Bible, the decision to drink or not to drink in moderation is best left up to the individual believer and what he feels is God's will for him to do.

In this case of people who have decided that it's God's will for them not to drink, they are to be commended.

In the case of people who believe that God's given them the liberty of drinking in moderation, then I applaud them for trying to follow Biblical guidelines while they excercise that liberty.

First of all, you censored me for asking a simple and perfectly legitimate question with much less implication than the one you just asked and called it an "attack". How is this any less of an "attack".

Seems a little hypocritical to me.

Honestly? I can take it or leave it.

I mentioned here that I'm currently under a self-imposed moratorium on drinking (although, in all honesty, I did have a $6.00 watered down beer at the Flyers/Capitals game the other night night) and it's made no difference one way or the other.

I've also shared that since I came to Christ, I really don't drink all that much, anyway, even though I do joke about it.

I'm usually the designated driver and I've shared the story of the case of beer that sat in my fridge until the box got moldy several times.

Given that and the way my friends make fun of me because I tend to nurse a single beer for half the night, I think it's safe to say that I can and have attain that goal.

 

Smoke eater apparently I did not make myself clear in the post above so I will give you a by on this one. Here is my stance on alcohol.

I will edit any post that I feel is boasting of their liberty of drinking. As I feel I am one of those who has the responsibility of setting the tone of this forum I will not allow those who drink to entice those who don't into an argument by listing their drinking habits. Please accept and adopt this policy when you post on this forum.
Murph

 

I don't know what the law is in N.J., but here in Flordia if you are caught drinking a beer while driving you will be given a ticket or maybe even go to jail. That doesn't sound like a good testimony for Christ to me.

My question, why drink?

Some say that alcohol is poison(which it is). So I guess it is okay to drink a little poison.

Some say, "it's only one drink." I'm sure that's what the alcoholic said his first drink.

 

I don't think anyone here disagrees.

Because I enjoy a glass of wine now and then with a meal, and because Rom 14 and 1 Cor 8 tell me it is alright as long as I am not abusing it or causing a brother to stumble.

Before responding directly, can I ask you to define "poison"? And what of Rom 14:20?

What's your point? That one drink makes you an alcoholic? Or are you playing guilty-by-association?

 

I think his point was that when you said "The Bible instructs us to not wish those of wrong doctrine godspeed but you commend his abstinence stance", you were implying that us who do drink believe abstinence is wrong doctrine. We don't, just as we don't believe people who don't drink coffee have wrong doctrine. They've just made a personal choice.

 

Gee, thank you.

That's awfully nice of you considering that I was responding to an accusation that you, yourself, made against me.

Don't you think it's just a little disingenuous of you to be able to say these things and then insist that the people you attack don't respond?

If you don't like it, then why did you bring it up?

[qb]

You implied that I only felt the way I did because I had a compulsion to drink and could not stop.

I boasted of nothing. I was merely demonstrating that I with the exception of one drink at a hockey game, I haven't enjoyed one in several months, even though the opportunity has presented itself many times and that, in reality, I didn't even drink very much when I did drink.

 

The law is the same and no, it's not a good testimony for Christ.

No body said that it was and I don't see what one has to do with the other.

As I've explained before, I'm under a self-imposed moratorium on drinking, but when I do, I drink it because it tastes good.

No, it's not poison but fermentation does introduce toxins into it.

Assuming a healthy person is drinking in moderate amounts, these toxic levels should be well within the acceptable limits for a healthy human body.

By the same token, the blowfish used in many Japanese dishes is extremely toxic and can be deadly if not properly prepared.

Does this mean that sushi is unbiblical?

Maybe, but you're assuming that anyone who drinks is an alchoholic or potential alchoholic and that's just not true.