Bible Translation from Hebrew/Greek or English?

[Van]

Ok, so many of you may know, but I plan to spend my life reaching the Nubi tribe of Uganda, and they do not have the Bible in their language, I am currently learning Hebrew and Greek to prepare for it, the difficulty of Hebrew really has me thinking and question about Bible translation in general.

Do translations really have to be/is it better to be based on Hebrew and Greek, or is it sufficient to translate from English?

Can one truly learn Hebrew and Greek even to a point of proficiency where it's really a practical trade-off for the time spent in learning the languages?

Have computer programs eliminated the need or bridged the gap enough to aid in translations?

I am hoping people like John of Japan or others who have spent time learning Greek and/or Hebrew could comment.

Maybe I just need someone to tell me to suck it and up and just keep on keeping on.

Allow me to offer an alternate view. Any translation is only as good as the translator or translation team that produced it. It is obvious that much of our English translations "borrow" from other English translations. Consider a triage unit, they provide the needed care to save those dying. The first translation of a people's language might not be the best, but it would get the job done if it faithfully presented the message found in good English translations.

But you must start with a good, and not an out of date translation. The NASB 95 is the best in my opinion.

Step one would be to develop a version of a verse or passage, in English, that presents the consensus view as to the meaning. The NET with its footnotes, and the WEB with its majority text underpinnings would provide a check on the NASB choices.

Now that you think you know what the passage is saying, then you could translate it into the target language, provided you were conversant in their language.

Remember that people who spent years learning the original language (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic) would not necessarily tell you it was a waste of time. And of course when trying to discern the actual message, rather than just presenting the view held by others, knowledge of the original language is essential.

 

[Eliyahu]

Part of the solution is to study Hebrew and Greek hard until one is fluent enough in them. Also, the longer you translate from the original languages the easier it gets. Your fluency increases in proportion to the effort to translate.
I agree that there are problems in a committee translation, as you have delineated. However, I've never heard of a missionary translation being done with several committees, though there may be one out there. Usually there are too few translators to have more than one committee, because as Jesus said, "The harvest is plenteous but the laborers are few." In our Japanese translation, there was one day when we had six translators there, but usually there were only two or three.

My belief is that if there is no other way, sure, a translation can be from the English. But if the translator is trained in Hebrew and Greek, that is the best way.

Great! I hope to hear someday that you have finished, to the glory of God.
The way translation efforts are doing the task now is usually to train the native speaker translators in Hebrew and Greek, and then act as a translation consultant to the effort. This is how it is done among fundamentalists nowadays through Bibles International, WorldView Ministries, etc.

You are absolutely correct. Bible translation is not for the lazy or faint of heart. This is true for translations from both the original languages and from the English. And it takes special dedication to make it all the way to the end

Years ago in the 1970's & 80's there was a TR based translation effort in Japan. They did print up a trial version of Mark, and eventually had a whole first draft of the NT in handwritten form. But they never finished the job, and now no one knows where the manuscript is.

Basically, the translation from the Hebrew and Greek takes very long time unless we have many expertises in both languages.
I am not sure Jordan has so many friends to form a team to translate the Bible.
KJV was started with 54 scholars and was finalized by 48 scholars, and was funded by British Kingdom. NKJV was translated by the committee of 130 scholars, led by Arthur Farstad.
Does Jordan have such supporting team? Then he can go ahead so.
Even in that case we must remember that KJV took 7 years.
In the meantime he and his team may not have any bible to preach the Gospel with?
But if Jordan translate English Bible into Nubi language, he and his friend can easily finish it within one year and review and correct it, then publish within 2 years.
Thereafter he can start the main translation from Hebrew and Greek, which may be scheduled for 10- 15 years.
Many of English Bible Versions, not necessarily KJV or NKJV, can be used for winning souls.
As for the choice of the Bible Versions, I think you have chosen TR ( and or Majority Text) and Masora, which I believe is the correct choice.
I reject any translation based on Westcott-Hort Greek NT because the root of it is the Roman Catholic Vatican Text B and its 90% is Vatican Text B, and the rest came from Alexandrian A and Sinaiticus Aleph.

I had a chance to check the original Sinaiticus Aleph in London Museum and found it is unreadable in so many spots. Also, it has too many errors in there.
Therefore it must be based on TR or Majority Text.
I am carefully checking the difference between Ben Chayyim Masora and Ben Asher Masora, and not so many differences in other spots but quite a few in Psalms and in chantings. This can be checked further after I finish the work.
Septuagint can never be used because it has so many errors and many verses are missing in Exodus etc. RCC likes to support LXX as it contains Apocrypha.

Also, the translators must have the sound doctrines of the Christian Faith.
They must understand the tactics of the Devil like Infant Baptism which caused the deletion of Acts 8:37 in Vatican Text B and like the Abolition of the Law which caused the partial deletion of Acts 18:21 so that the pagan festival may replace the Biblical 7 Feasts, and like the Clergy System by the partial deletion of Mt 23:8. You know hundreds of errors and deletions in Westcott-Hort Text excluding the thousands of minor scribal errors.
Therefore I would recommend TR for NT and Ben Chayyim Masora for OT, which were the underlying texts for KJV, YLT, Third Millennium Bible etc.

YLT is even more accurate than KJV in terms of Word-to-Word translation, but it has some critical problem with Perfect Tense of Hebrew Verbs as it translates the perfect tense as < have pp> all the time though the perfect tense can indicate Duty, Destiny, Insisting, Will, for the future, etc. But, YLT can be a good help as it is so much accurate in terms of Mood, Tense, Numbers etc.

I reject Catholicism, Clergy System, Infant Baptism, but believe in Believers Baptism by Immersion, Deity of Jesus Christ, Women's Head Covering for the prayer and prophecy ( 1 Cor 11:1-16) and Frequent Lord Supper ( 1 Cor 11:25-26) etc. which are supported by the majority of the manuscripts.


This is my view and comment.

Eliyahu

 

[John of Japan]

Basically, the translation from the Hebrew and Greek takes very long time unless we have many expertises in both languages.
I am not sure Jordan has so many friends to form a team to translate the Bible.

Forgive me, but I don't think you understand the methodology we are talking about here. (Jordan can correct me if this is wrong, but I have trained African translators and am conversant with several such efforts.) The goal is not to find friends who can help you translate, but to recognize native speakers called by God to the work. He then must train them first in Greek, after which they will do the translating and he will act as a translation consultant. Hopefully along the way he will learn enough of the Nubi language to do this well, but he must not do the final translation himself, even if he becomes fluent in Nubi. A non-native speaker makes too many mistakes.

When they are done with the NT, then he can train them in Hebrew and repeat the process. The efforts I know of take many years and many revisions and proofings to get it right.

KJV was started with 54 scholars and was finalized by 48 scholars, and was funded by British Kingdom. NKJV was translated by the committee of 130 scholars, led by Arthur Farstad.
Does Jordan have such supporting team? Then he can go ahead so.
Even in that case we must remember that KJV took 7 years.

Again, I don't think you understand. He's not there yet. He's working on his graduate degree in the States. So at this point he has few or no Nubi contacts, and is years away from beginning.

In the meantime he and his team may not have any bible to preach the Gospel with?
But if Jordan translate English Bible into Nubi language, he and his friend can easily finish it within one year and review and correct it, then publish within 2 years.

I disagree with this time frame, even with an English source text. I think that one or two years is much too short a time to finish the NT and do it well, even with a full time team. One of our grad students (M.A. in Bible Translation) just left for an internship at such an effort in India, and that effort has been going on for years, already, but they are a very competent team of native speakers with one American linguist.

Many of English Bible Versions, not necessarily KJV or NKJV, can be used for winning souls.

This is only if the target people group speaks English.

 

[Eliyahu]

Forgive me, but I don't think you understand the methodology we are talking about here. (Jordan can correct me if this is wrong, but I have trained African translators and am conversant with several such efforts.) The goal is not to find friends who can help you translate, but to recognize native speakers called by God to the work. He then must train them first in Greek, after which they will do the translating and he will act as a translation consultant. Hopefully along the way he will learn enough of the Nubi language to do this well, but he must not do the final translation himself, even if he becomes fluent in Nubi. A non-native speaker makes too many mistakes.

When they are done with the NT, then he can train them in Hebrew and repeat the process. The efforts I know of take many years and many revisions and proofings to get it right.


Again, I don't think you understand. He's not there yet. He's working on his graduate degree in the States. So at this point he has few or no Nubi contacts, and is years away from beginning.


I disagree with this time frame, even with an English source text. I think that one or two years is much too short a time to finish the NT and do it well, even with a full time team. One of our grad students (M.A. in Bible Translation) just left for an internship at such an effort in India, and that effort has been going on for years, already, but they are a very competent team of native speakers with one American linguist.
This is only if the target people group speaks English.

Whether Jordan is in USA or in other country doesn't matter very much.
I am very sure that Jordan doesn't have to learn English, but he needs to learn Greek and Hebrew.
That's the start of the differences. Moreover, not only himself, his friends have to learn Hebrew and Greek. Problem is that Greek and Hebrew are not the Colloquial languages and they don't speak or write in those languages in their daily lives. Therefore there is a huge difference in memorizing the words and vocabularies. Eventually, there will be a huge difference in the time required for the translations.
If Jordan cannot finish the translation from English Text within 2 years, he should spend 5-10 times of time for the Greek and Hebrew. With which Bible will he preach the Gospel in the meantime?

What I meant by any English Bible was that any translation from any reasonable version of English can be used for winning souls. I understood most of the Nubi tribes may not understand any English Bible.
But any translation of English Bible like HCSB or NASB into Nubi language can be used for winning souls.
If Jordan has already read any English Bible more than 5- 10 times, he can translate it within one year, then review 10 times or more than he can publish it. I have published some books and can tell it from my experience. Reading my own translation takes a long time for the first time, but after 3-5 times, it takes a very short time.

Again, any translation from English Bible into the desired language can be used enough for winning souls. Thereafter he can secure more man power, then he can translate more accurate Bible from the original languages.

I agree that Languages can be learned by reading the Bible and translating it after we learn the basics of the languages. But there is a huge difference in translation time between the languages which we didn't know and the colloquial language which we use daily.

Have you translated some portion of Hebrew OT?

Eliyahu

 

[John of Japan]

Whether Jordan is in USA or in other country doesn't matter very much.
I am very sure that Jordan doesn't have to learn English, but he needs to learn Greek and Hebrew.
That's the start of the differences. Moreover, not only himself, his friends have to learn Hebrew and Greek. Problem is that Greek and Hebrew are not the Colloquial languages and they don't speak or write in those languages in their daily lives. Therefore there is a huge difference in memorizing the words and vocabularies. Eventually, there will be a huge difference in the time required for the translations.
If Jordan cannot finish the translation from English Text within 2 years, he should spend 5-10 times of time for the Greek and Hebrew. With which Bible will he preach the Gospel in the meantime?

What I meant by any English Bible was that any translation from any reasonable version of English can be used for winning souls. I understood most of the Nubi tribes may not understand any English Bible.
But any translation of English Bible like HCSB or NASB into Nubi language can be used for winning souls.
If Jordan has already read any English Bible more than 5- 10 times, he can translate it within one year, then review 10 times or more than he can publish it. I have published some books and can tell it from my experience. Reading my own translation takes a long time for the first time, but after 3-5 times, it takes a very short time.

Again, any translation from English Bible into the desired language can be used enough for winning souls. Thereafter he can secure more man power, then he can translate more accurate Bible from the original languages.
I agree that Languages can be learned by reading the Bible and translating it after we learn the basics of the languages. But there is a huge difference in translation time between the languages which we didn't know and the colloquial language which we use daily.

Thanks for the explanation. I understand what you are saying.

Have you translated some portion of Hebrew OT?

Eliyahu

I translated a few Psalms with my Japanese partner before we left Japan, and my son, our Hebrew teacher, has translated some Psalms and Obadiah.

 

[Eliyahu]

Thanks for the explanation. I understand what you are saying.


I translated a few Psalms with my Japanese partner before we left Japan, and my son, our Hebrew teacher, has translated some Psalms and Obadiah.

Thanks.

I may have emphasized too much in the beginning, the time consuming aspect of the translation from Ancient Languages against the preaching of the Gospel. Indeed the best translation may come from the Believers who are preaching the Gospels and winning the Souls at the same time while they are working hard to translate the Bible. But if Jordan has no Bible for that tribes at all at this time, he need any Bible for Nubi Tribes ASAP while he is translating the good one as it takes time.
I hope Jordan has understood the magnitude of the translation from the Hebrew and Greek Bible. In that case, the translation of one of the English Bibles into his desired language first can be a good approach. Thereafter he can translate the more accurate one from the ancient languages.

I asked you about Hebrew Bible because I often bother with the connection between OT and NT.
These days, I encountered Numbers 15:38 which mentioned about Tzit Tzit, then Gedilim is mentioned in Deut 22:12, both of which seem to be the same. This left me with the question about the hem of the garments of Jesus touched by the woman in Matthew 9:20. Messianic Jews believe this is the Tzit Tzit of the Tallit and I think so. But then why does Deut mention it as Gedilim. Karaite Jews seem to consider both the same. I am not sure.
Tzitzit | Wikiwand
Tzitzit - What Scripture Says About... - Psalm11918.org

Anyway, Hebrew OT takes way longer time than I expected and another 5 years may not be enough for me.

God Bless

Eliyahu

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks.

I may have emphasized too much in the beginning, the time consuming aspect of the translation from Ancient Languages against the preaching of the Gospel. Indeed the best translation may come from the Believers who are preaching the Gospels and winning the Souls at the same time while they are working hard to translate the Bible. But if Jordan has no Bible for that tribes at all at this time, he need any Bible for Nubi Tribes ASAP while he is translating the good one as it takes time.

I understand your points. Thank you for elaborating,

I hope Jordan has understood the magnitude of the translation from the Hebrew and Greek Bible. In that case, the translation of one of the English Bibles into his desired language first can be a good approach. Thereafter he can translate the more accurate one from the ancient languages.

Any translation effort into an African or Asian language is a huge undertaking, even from English. Those languages are very different from Indo-European languages, as you know.

I asked you about Hebrew Bible because I often bother with the connection between OT and NT.
These days, I encountered Numbers 15:38 which mentioned about Tzit Tzit, then Gedilim is mentioned in Deut 22:12, both of which seem to be the same. This left me with the question about the hem of the garments of Jesus touched by the woman in Matthew 9:20. Messianic Jews believe this is the Tzit Tzit of the Tallit and I think so. But then why does Deut mention it as Gedilim. Karaite Jews seem to consider both the same. I am not sure.
Tzitzit | Wikiwand
Tzitzit - What Scripture Says About... - Psalm11918.org

This is a huge subject by itself.

Anyway, Hebrew OT takes way longer time than I expected and another 5 years may not be enough for me.

God Bless

Eliyahu

Very true. Hang in there and go all the way with your OT translation. God will bless.

 

[Eliyahu]

I understand your points. Thank you for elaborating,

Any translation effort into an African or Asian language is a huge undertaking, even from English. Those languages are very different from Indo-European languages, as you know.


This is a huge subject by itself.


Very true. Hang in there and go all the way with your OT translation. God will bless.

Thank You, and you as well.
Eliyahu

 

[John of Japan]

Just heard from one of our Bible translation MA interns. As I have noted on this thread, I believe, concerning the Wycliffe method, there is a translation in the language the intern is working in, but it is from the GNB, not the original languages, and therefore not viable--though it is better than nothing.