Bible vs Reformed Election

[SavedByGrace]

My eyes will never be closed off to the truth I have found. Don't pray for me to change my mind back to blindness.

there is always hope, I will entreat the Lord for you and others here

 

[Reformed1689]

wrong again! Lets try once more, note what I said, "No, they did not come for their healing...that they REFUSE, that is CHOOSE not to go to Him for eternal life" THIS is the comparison, and NOT the cure for Covid and the blood of Jesus! You again cannot grasp these very simple things!

Except, here's the problem, you said that in direct response to the following:

Really? We are all under God's wrath before salvation, including the elect. Have you ever considered that if Jesus died for every individual that means His blood was not good enough to save all? He paid for the sin, payment made, but that payment was not good enough? The sacrifice was not enough? God could not accomplish the task?

You can take things out of context all you want but when you do I am going to call you on it, especially if you are doing it to try and belittle me. We were clearly talking about the sacrifice and then you made the comparison as an illustration. Context matters and I am tired of you blatantly taking things out of context to either make your point or to belittle another poster. That's called bearing false witness and you should repent.

 

[Reformed1689]

there is always hope, I will entreat the Lord for you and others here

No thank you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No thank you.

have a great day!

 

[Alan Gross]

This truth stands against all such caricatures as great blessing to Gods people as Eph.1:3-14, exclaims.

Spiritual Blessings

(Romans 8:28-34)



3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings
in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us
in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will,
according to his good pleasure
which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
he might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him
who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory,
who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Reformed/Calvinistic “election” teaches that Jesus Christ only died for this group, and no person who is “non elect”, can ever be saved.

By this very sentence you show that you don't know what Reformed Theology is, which is why you are so confused by Calvin's writing. I shudder to think what you would make of Bunyan or Spurgeon.
Tell me, what do you believe is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ? And what do you think I, as a Calvinist, believe is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ?

 

[Aaron]

This is irrefutable evidence from the very Word of Almighty God, that God’s saving Grace, Mercy, Compassion and Love, is NOT restricted to any “elect”, whom He would only save, and damn the others.

No, it's irrefutable proof that God has elect from every nation.

 

[Dave G]

The God of the Old Testament is the SAME God of the New Testament, and His salvation is still ever the same, to “whosoever repents and believes”, will indeed be saved.

Amen.

It is mans “theology” that has sought to narrow the Great Love that the Lord has towards to entire human race, NONE EXCEPTED!

None are excepted?
That is not what the Scriptures say, SBG:

" When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" ( Matthew 25:31-34 ).



" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 ).
" And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." ( Matthew 25:46 ).



" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:6-8 ).

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; " ( 2 Peter 2:12 ).

" Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." ( 1 Peter 2:7-8 ).

" For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." ( Jude 1:4 ).


There are elect, the children of God ( the righteous, made so by the blood of His dear Son ) and there are the children of wrath.

The elect were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
They were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

The children of wrath ( the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction ) were not.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, it's irrefutable proof that God has elect from every nation.

that is your theology and nothing to do with what the Bible teaches!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Amen.

None are excepted?
That is not what the Scriptures say, SBG:

" When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" ( Matthew 25:31-34 ).



" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 ).
" And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." ( Matthew 25:46 ).



" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:6-8 ).

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; " ( 2 Peter 2:12 ).

" Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." ( 1 Peter 2:7-8 ).

" For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." ( Jude 1:4 ).


There are elect, the children of God ( the righteous, made so by the blood of His dear Son ) and there are the children of wrath.

The elect were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
They were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

The children of wrath ( the vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction ) were not.

you say that you are not "reformed/calvinist", and yet almost ALL of your replies are exactly that! I notice that the Scriprutes that you choose when you reply, are ONLY those that these groups would use in their arguments, and the very same reasoning. For example, the last quote that you use from Romans 9, "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (22). Like a true "reformed" person would do, you purposely omit the middle of this verse, and take it out of its intended context! If, as you and your "reformed" friends would argue, that this means that God has "prepared for destruction", meaning that this are reprobate and hell-bound, then why would God ever bother with these, and "endured with much patience"? What is God wating for to happen? What does He want of these? The context is very clear to those whose minds have not been twisted by "reformed" nonsense, which is "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (21). THIS is what the words in verses 22 and 23 refer to. It has NOTHING to do with God electing anyone to salvation! Let the Bible speak without imposing your theology into what it actually says!

 

[SavedByGrace]

By this very sentence you show that you don't know what Reformed Theology is, which is why you are so confused by Calvin's writing. I shudder to think what you would make of Bunyan or Spurgeon.
Tell me, what do you believe is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ? And what do you think I, as a Calvinist, believe is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ?

Firstly as the Bible teaches, that Jesus Christ has died for every single person of the human race, as John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:1-6; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17, etc, teaches
Secondly, Jesus says in John 16, of the Coming of the Holy Spirit, "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me" (8-9)
Thirdly, those who are "convicted" of their sins, as those were after Peters sermon in Acts 2:37 "they were cut to the heart"; they, by the inward leading of the Holy Spirit, will repent for the forgiveness of their sins (verse 38); which then gives them the Gift of the Holy Spirit
Fourthly, these sinners are then born-again, and are then part of God's "elect".

Now you tell me your "Calvinist" position.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Firstly as the Bible teaches, that Jesus Christ has died for every single person of the human race, as John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:1-6; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17, etc, teaches
Secondly, Jesus says in John 16, of the Coming of the Holy Spirit, "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me" (8-9)
Thirdly, those who are "convicted" of their sins, as those were after Peters sermon in Acts 2:37 "they were cut to the heart"; they, by the inward leading of the Holy Spirit, will repent for the forgiveness of their sins (verse 38); which then gives them the Gift of the Holy Spirit
Fourthly, these sinners are then born-again, and are then part of God's "elect".

Now you tell me your "Calvinist" position.

You haven't told me what you think the sinner's warrant to come to Christ is, either for yourself, or for 'Calvinists.'
However, not to waste further time, I will tell you what the sinner's warrant is. It is simply that he is a sinner, and Christ Jesus came into the world to save such. If he will come to Christ in repentance and faith, Christ undertakes not to cast him out. No matter if he is a wife-beater, an adulterer, a child-molester, a thief, a murderer or a would-be Moslem suicide bomber; if he will come to Christ, He will by no means cast him out (John 6:37). There is a wonderful sermon by Spurgeon on this theme, but I don't have time to look it out.

But when he comes, he will find that it is all of God (Romans 9:16 etc.) who has loved him from eternity and drawn him to Himself with all longsuffering and with covenant mercies, because salvation belongs to our God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You haven't told me what you think the sinner's warrant to come to Christ is

the first point, John 3:16! God SO LOVES the sinner...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I would like to add that there is really no reason for all this animosity between Calvinists and Arminians.
G. Campbell Morgan was a famous pastor and preacher in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. He was Arminian in his theology He was pastor of Westminster Chapel, London (for the second time) around 1935, by which time he was quite elderly. He looked around for a man to succeed him, seeking someone who was utterly faithful to the word of God. He settled on Martyn Lloyd-Jones, and approached him when both men were on preaching tours of the USA.
But Lloyd-Jones was a Calvinist. Nevertheless, Campbell Morgan was prepared to bring him in as co-pastor and they ministered together from 1938 until C.M. retired in 1943. According to Lloyd-Jones they had no problems with is arrangement, one preaching in the mornings, the other in the evenings. The only practical difference in their theologies was that C.M. would tell people that Christ had died for them and M.L-J would tell them that Christ died for such as them.
Whilst I am unreservedly Calvinist in my theology, I would have no problem cooperating with an Arminian in evangelism. A Pelagian or semi-Pelagian would be another matter, however.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

the first point, John 3:16! God SO LOVES the sinner...

I didn't ask what God's warrant is, I asked what the sinner's warrant is to come to Christ.

But the Greek word houtos in John 3:16 means 'thus' or 'in this way,' rather than 'so' as a measure of quantity (as in the Christian Standard Bible). This is how God loved the world; He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Amen and amen!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I would like to add that there is really no reason for all this animosity between Calvinists and Arminians.
G. Campbell Morgan was a famous pastor and preacher in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. He was Arminian in his theology He was pastor of Westminster Chapel, London (for the second time) around 1935, by which time he was quite elderly. He looked around for a man to succeed him, seeking someone who was utterly faithful to the word of God. He settled on Martyn Lloyd-Jones, and approached him when both men were on preaching tours of the USA.
But Lloyd-Jones was a Calvinist. Nevertheless, Campbell Morgan was prepared to bring him in as co-pastor and they ministered together from 1938 until C.M. retired in 1943. According to Lloyd-Jones they had no problems with is arrangement, one preaching in the mornings, the other in the evenings. The only practical difference in their theologies was that C.M. would tell people that Christ had died for them and M.L-J would tell them that Christ died for such as them.
Whilst I am unreservedly Calvinist in my theology, I would have no problem cooperating with an Arminian in evangelism. A Pelagian or semi-Pelagian would be another matter, however.

I used to attent Westminster Chapel in the mid 1980's, when the American Dr R T Kendall was the Pastor. My best Christian friend since September 1983, is a five point Calvinist. We have agreed to disagree on certain points of Doctrine. My biggest issue with the so called "Reformed" theology, is their limitation on the extent of Jesus' death, even though they believe that the Gospel Message is to be preached universally.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I didn't ask what God's warrant is, I asked what the sinner's warrant is to come to Christ.

But the Greek word houtos in John 3:16 means 'thus' or 'in this way,' rather than 'so' as a measure of quantity (as in the Christian Standard Bible). This is how God loved the world; He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Amen and amen!

God's immense Love for the sinner draws them.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I used to attent Westminster Chapel in the mid 1980's, when the American Dr R T Kendall was the Pastor. My best Christian friend since September 1983, is a five point Calvinist. We have agreed to disagree on certain points of Doctrine.

I'm glad to hear that you have Calvinist friends I had gained the impression from your posts that you were rather extreme on the matter. I'm glad to hear that I was wrong.

My biggest issue with the so called "Reformed" theology, is their limitation on the extent of Jesus' death, even though they believe that the Gospel Message is to be preached universally.

We don't limit the achievement of Jesus' death. He said, "...This is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of al that He has given Me, but raise it up at the last day" (John 6:39). And this He has done. The great crowd of Rev. 7 is neither smaller or greater under Calvinism or Arminianism. Actually, 'limited atonement' is an unfortunate expression. 'Particular' or, better yet 'effectual' atonement would be much better. It's just that TUPIP or TUEIP aren't such catchy acronyms as TULIP.

God's immense Love for the sinner draws them.

That's still not what I was looking for. I want to know what the sinner's warrant to come to Christ is.
As I Calvinist I can agree with that sentiment, but I'm not sure I could do so as an Arminian. God loved me enough to save me, not just to offer me salvation, not just to draw me towards Christ, but actually to save me (Titus 3:3-6). It is not just the offer of salvation that belongs to God, but salvation itself.

 

[Aaron]

that is your theology and nothing to do with what the Bible teaches!

ouch.

Stung again by your rapier wit.

 

[AustinC]

I'm glad to hear that you have Calvinist friends I had gained the impression from your posts that you were rather extreme on the matter. I'm glad to hear that I was wrong.

We don't limit the achievement of Jesus' death. He said, "...This is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of al that He has given Me, but raise it up at the last day" (John 6:39). And this He has done. The great crowd of Rev. 7 is neither smaller or greater under Calvinism or Arminianism. Actually, 'limited atonement' is an unfortunate expression. 'Particular' or, better yet 'effectual' atonement would be much better. It's just that TUPIP or TUEIP aren't such catchy acronyms as TULIP.

That's still not what I was looking for. I want to know what the sinner's warrant to come to Christ is.
As I Calvinist I can agree with that sentiment, but I'm not sure I could do so as an Arminian. God loved me enough to save me, not just to offer me salvation, not just to draw me towards Christ, but actually to save me (Titus 3:3-6). It is not just the offer of salvation that belongs to God, but salvation itself.

Well said, Martin.