Biblical Assertion

[agedman]

The Biblical Assertion, people can seek God and trust in Christ, has been validated, and the alternate view, total spiritual inability, has been shown to have no actual support in scripture.
1)1 Cor. 2:14 does not say fallen people cannot receive all the things of the Spirit, but Matthew 13 does say 3 of the 4 (fallen) soils can receive some of the things of the Spirit.

The Scriptures given above have been shown to NOT support the OP and what Van is claiming. Further proof is given below.

2) "If the Spirit of God is the only one who knows the thoughts (mind) of God, then there is no ability innate in a person to know that mind much less be obedient." This assertion is wrong, if the Spirit reveals God (say by inspiring the New Testament) then some those thoughts of God (spiritual milk) can be known by those not indwelt.

The Scriptures state:

"Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God"
"12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."
​

Scripture teaches that the unregenerate does not accept but rejects as foolish and incomprehensible that which is of God.

This Scripture is direct opposition to the statements of spiritual ability of the OP and subsequent supporting the OP, posts.

There IS spiritual ability innate in the fallen. It isn't the ability of what Van is attempting to declare as valid.

The "spiritual ability" of the fallen as the Scriptures would display is that portrayal of the fallen in the worship of the creature in place of the creator and that of idols as God (Psalms 115).

However, this is not the contention in this thread.

Such fallen "ability" in no way can be taken as that which is able to attain righteousness without the direct and purposed work of God through the Word and the Holy Spirit.

4) "it follows that those who do not have the Spirit of God are barred from comprehension and acknowledgement of validity concerning the things of God." No it does not. Matthew 13 teaches that Jesus had to speak in parables to "prevent" those not yet indwelt from understanding. The complete opposite of Agedman's mistaken assertion.

It isn't MY assertion.

It is the assertion of the Scriptures.

"14 But a natural man (unregenerate) does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

5) No where does John teach all fallen people cannot seek God or trust in Christ at any time. The opposite is in fact taught, "everyone believing into Him shall not perish...."

It is not MY assertion it is that of the Scriptures.

10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

6) Why return to Romans 3, for there is none who do good, not even one." The fact that we have all fallen short of the glory of God is not in dispute. That, in our fallen state, all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags. The fallen are all under sin, and headed for Hades/Gehenna. But in that state, people seek God and trust in Christ, Matthew 13, Matthew 23:13.

Romans 3 stands in direct opposition to the OP and the subsequent posts that support the OP.

There is not a single person of the Romans 3 account that "seek God and trust in Christ."

In fact I challenge ANYONE to find a single passage of all Romans that in context states that the fallen have the innate ability to "seek God and trust in Christ."

Going briefly back to Matthew:
EVEN the dirt of Matthew did not "seek God and trust in Christ."

So, include that section also. I challenge ANYONE to prove that the dirt cried out for the seed. That the dirt in some way was sentient and longed for and sought diligently for the seed.

Was not the seed GIVEN?

What dirt was PREPARED for the seed and what dirt was not prepared?

Prepared dirt is the only saved dirt, or even potentially saved dirt. No other dirt had even the potential for salvation.

Who is in charge of the dirt?

 

[Van]

Agedman's post 61 simply denies the obvious. First he says "no one knows" but then in the same passage says we know what God has given us, which of course includes the gospel.

Then he repeats the mistaken claim "the unregenerate does not accept but rejects as foolish and incomprehensible that which is of God." However, Matthew 13 teaches 3 of the 4 soils did accept that which is from God, not to mention Matthew 23:13.

Then Agedman offers yet another misrepresentation. "fallen "ability" in no way can be taken as that which is able to attain righteousness without the direct and purposed work of God through the Word and the Holy Spirit." No one said salvation is not totally of God. Yet there it is, a strawman, trying to obscure the obvious.

Then Agedman sidesteps Matthew 13, as he ignores that 1 Cor. 2:14 does not say fallen cannot receive some (spiritual milk) of the things of the Spirit. Of course they can, as taught in Matthew 13 and Matthew 23:13.

Then Agedman repeats Romans 3, again ignoring the passage does not say no one seeks after God at any time. Contextually the idea is no one seeks God all the time, and therefore sins, or no one seeks God when sinning, and therefore everyone is under sin.

Romans 7 describes Paul's efforts before salvation, teaching of his limited spiritual ability.

Finally, Agedman, goes back to Matthew 13 and denies 3 of the soils received some of the things of the Spirit, the gospel of Christ, spiritual milk.

Folks, the Biblical Assertion has once again been shown to be valid.

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports total spiritual inability. Not Romans 3, not 1 Cor. 2, not John, none zip nada.

2) Limited spiritual ability has been demonstrated in the fallen soils of Matthew 13, and the men of Matthew 23:13.

3) Additionally, Jesus spoke in parables to prevent the fallen from receiving spiritual milk, see Matthew 13:10-15

4) Then consider Romans 11 where God hardens hearts to prevent receiving the gospel. Once again teaching they had limited spiritual ability which had to be taken away.​

 

[SovereignGrace]

Agedman's post 61 simply denies the obvious. First he says "no one knows" but then in the same passage says we know what God has given us, which of course includes the gospel.

Then he repeats the mistaken claim "the unregenerate does not accept but rejects as foolish and incomprehensible that which is of God." However, Matthew 13 teaches 3 of the 4 soils did accept that which is from God, not to mention Matthew 23:13.

Then Agedman offers yet another misrepresentation. "fallen "ability" in no way can be taken as that which is able to attain righteousness without the direct and purposed work of God through the Word and the Holy Spirit." No one said salvation is not totally of God. Yet there it is, a strawman, trying to obscure the obvious.

Then Agedman sidesteps Matthew 13, as he ignores that 1 Cor. 2:14 does not say fallen cannot receive some (spiritual milk) of the things of the Spirit. Of course they can, as taught in Matthew 13 and Matthew 23:13.

Then Agedman repeats Romans 3, again ignoring the passage does not say no one seeks after God at any time. Contextually the idea is no one seeks God all the time, and therefore sins, or no one seeks God when sinning, and therefore everyone is under sin.

Romans 7 describes Paul's efforts before salvation, teaching of his limited spiritual ability.

Finally, Agedman, goes back to Matthew 13 and denies 3 of the soils received some of the things of the Spirit, the gospel of Christ, spiritual milk.

Folks, the Biblical Assertion has once again been shown to be valid.

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports total spiritual inability. Not Romans 3, not 1 Cor. 2, not John, none zip nada.

2) Limited spiritual ability has been demonstrated in the fallen soils of Matthew 13, and the men of Matthew 23:13.

3) Additionally, Jesus spoke in parables to prevent the fallen from receiving spiritual milk, see Matthew 13:10-15

4) Then consider Romans 11 where God hardens hearts to prevent receiving the gospel. Once again teaching they had limited spiritual ability which had to be taken away.​

 

[Van]

I see yet another obfuscation post, devoid of content.

Folks, the Biblical Assertion has once again been shown to be valid.

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports total spiritual inability. Not Romans 3, not 1 Cor. 2, not John, none zip nada.

2) Limited spiritual ability has been demonstrated in the fallen soils of Matthew 13, and the men of Matthew 23:13.

3) Additionally, Jesus spoke in parables to prevent the fallen from receiving spiritual milk, see Matthew 13:10-15

4) Then consider Romans 11 where God hardens hearts to prevent receiving the gospel. Once again teaching they had limited spiritual ability which had to be taken away.​

 

[Martin Marprelate]

From the NIV (Non-inspired Van) translation.

John 3:19. 'And this is the condemnation. The light has come into the world and quite a few people preferred light to darkness.'

Romans 3:11. 'There are actually some who understand; there are some who seek God.'

2 Cor. 2:14. 'The natural man does sometimes receive the things of God, for they are not foolishness to him, and he can know them (if they are spiritual milk) because they are able to be discerned by non-spiritual people.'

John 9:35-36. 'Jesus heard that he had been cast out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered and said, "Well, I'd like to, but the Scribes and Pharisees have not allowed me so I'm afraid I can't."'

 

[Van]

Folks, more obfuscation, more denial, more smoke-screen posts.

John 3:19, 19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.​

Does this verse say all men or some men? Nope. It leaves the scope of the statement to be discerned through context. This judgment or assessment deals with people who have rejected rather than believed in Jesus, see verse 18. This verse (19) does not support the mistaken doctrine of total spiritual inability. Neither do the other verses cited by Martin. Just read them folks.

Romans 3:11 says there are none who seek God but leaves the scope of this statement to be discerned through context. It is true there are none who seek God all the time. It is true there are none who seek God when they are sinning. It is not true there are none who seek God at any time. For example the people of Matthew 23:13.

1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches Paul spoke spiritual milk to new Christians as if they were Men of Flesh. The truth is obvious.

Last one, John 9:35-36, Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, he said, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? Here we have a passage that supports limited spiritual ability, for the outcast desires to believe in Jesus. Game, set and match.

Folks, the Biblical Assertion has once again been shown to be valid.

1) No verse or passage, contextually considered supports total spiritual inability. Not Romans 3, not 1 Cor. 2, not John, none zip nada.

2) Limited spiritual ability has been demonstrated in the fallen soils of Matthew 13, and the men of Matthew 23:13.

3) Additionally, Jesus spoke in parables to prevent the fallen from receiving spiritual milk, see Matthew 13:10-15

4) Then consider Romans 11 where God hardens hearts to prevent receiving the gospel. Once again teaching they had limited spiritual ability which had to be taken away.​

http://www.baptistboard.com/bible/john/9:36/