Biblical definition of Justice

[russell55]

Well, since the subject of late seems to be God's justice, how about we come up with a biblical definition? Just for fun, let's use no dictionaries, lexicons, etc, but only get info from the text itself.

What can we learn about what God means when he says he is just from what he tells us in His word?

Quote a scripture, and then give a little summary of the conclusion you draw about the meaning of the word just or justice as used in scripture from the text you have quoted.

 

[russell55]

While I'm thinking of it: I'd like to keep the posts on this thread to two types--definition posts like the one I outlined above, using scripture to help define the word; and limited debate posts. The debate posts would be of this sort: "I don't think you can make that conclusion about justice from that particular scripture and here's why...." or "Yes, I am right to conclude that about justice from that scripture and here's my evidence..."

It should not be necessary to use either the word "Calvinist" or "Arminian" in your post to make your point.

 

[Skandelon]

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

This passage was one of the first that came to mind in regard to our discussion on this board. It doesn't specifically mention the word "justice" but it certainly speaks to the issue of God's righteousness in the judgment of mankind.

Notice that it says people are without excuse. This is a legal term literally meaning without a defense. This is important to qualify God's justice in condemnation. We stand before him without an excuse, without a defense.

WHY? Notice the component necessary for a man to be condemned without excuse.

That what may be know of God is "clearly seen" and "understood" yet is rejected by man as being God.

Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that mankind is born unable to see and understand the things of God and that only some people are enabled by the Spirit to see and understand. Therefore, all those born unable to see and understand within the Calvinistic system would have a perfect defense. There excuse would simply be, "I did not understand because I was born incapable of seeing and understanding the things you made known to us."

By removing man's capasity to see and understand Calvinism has given lost men an excuse in judgement.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by russell55:
While I'm thinking of it: I'd like to keep the posts on this thread to two types--definition posts like the one I outlined above, using scripture to help define the word; and limited debate posts. The debate posts would be of this sort: "I don't think you can make that conclusion about justice from that particular scripture and here's why...." or "Yes, I am right to conclude that about justice from that scripture and here's my evidence..."

It should not be necessary to use either the word "Calvinist" or "Arminian" in your post to make your point.

Sorry, I hadn't read your second post before I responded. I hope it can still add to the discussion.

 

[russell55]

Sorry, I hadn't read your second post before I responded. I hope it can still add to the discussion.

Well, the first part of your post is pretty much exactly what I am looking for.

Notice that it says people are without excuse. This is a legal term literally meaning without a defense. This is important to qualify God's justice in condemnation. We stand before him without an excuse, without a defense.

So, part of being just is making sure that whatever condemnation is meted out is deserved condemnation? Is that a fair summary of what you are saying?

I'm going to copy part of that last half of your post and respond to it on your "just" thread. I'd like to keep the focus of this one very narrow. Okay?

 

[Yelsew]

Justice: (Rev 20:15)

1. You get what you deserve.

2. You get what God wants you to have.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by russell55:
So, part of being just is making sure that whatever condemnation is meted out is deserved condemnation? Is that a fair summary of what you are saying?

I guess that's a good summary. A judge must have a just reason to condemn and according to this passage the defendant would have some type of defense or excuse if he were unable to see or understand the things of God. (I'll respond to the rest on the other post.)

 

[russell55]

I will respond to your posts later. Unfortunately, my server was down for a big portion of the weekend....

 

[russell55]

I guess that's a good summary. A judge must have a just reason to condemn and according to this passage the defendant would have some type of defense or excuse if he were unable to see or understand the things of God. (I'll respond to the rest on the other post.)

I do agree with you that this passage is proving God's just grounds for condemning people. I don't think it is specifically addressing man's inability as defined by Calvinists. Well, actually, I do think its addressing it in a way, but I think it is actually proving it, but that's a subject for another thread.

I think the point of the passage as it relates to God's justice is this: It is just for God to condemn the Gentiles for their sin even though they did not have the specific moral code found in the law that the Jews had. The Gents knew enough about God from creation itself to know that there is an eternal Creator that they ought to be worshipping, and they didn't. So there is just grounds for condemning them, because at the very least, they were aware of this requirement upon them, and they failed to fulfill it.

But we still come back to the same point you made about God's justice: In order for God to be just there must be just grounds for condemnation.

I also think we can learn from this passage that God is not required to provide equal knowledge of himself to everyone in order to be just in condemning everyone. Some knowledge not properly acted upon is enough for God to be just in condemnation.

 

[russell55]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Justice: (Rev 20:15)

1. You get what you deserve.

2. You get what God wants you to have.

Okay, so I'll go along with the first one. But how do you get the second point from this verse?

 

[russell55]

I think that Romans 3:25, 26 adds something to this discussion, too.

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Not only must a just God have just grounds for condemnation, when He is merciful to someone--when He withholds the wrath righteously due them--He must have just grounds for that as well. Christ's propitiatory sacrifice provides this. Because His death propitiated God's wrath, God can justly justify us (or righteously count us righteous).

God can express mercy only within the bounds of His justice.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Justice: (Rev 20:15)

1. You get what you deserve.

2. You get what God wants you to have.

Okay, so I'll go along with the first one. But how do you get the second point from this verse? </font>[/QUOTE]The first we agree. The second, God determined from the foundation of the world what HIS justice would be to all who refused to have Faith in His son. So truly we get what we deserve, for truly we are deserving of death for the sins we do; and we get what God wants us to have because He established his desire before he Created. Thus we get what God wants us to have.

 

[Me2]

Pro 11:1 A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight.

Gods justice as all expressions towards mankind is equal to all. God treating one differently than another is an abomonation.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

everyone dies in adam, everyone is raised from death in the newness of life in Christ.

there is no one treated unequally or unjustly compared to any other human being in Gods Plans.

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Me2:
Pro 11:1 A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight.

Gods justice as all expressions towards mankind is equal to all. God treating one differently than another is an abomonation.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

everyone dies in adam, everyone is raised from death in the newness of life in Christ.

there is no one treated unequally or unjustly compared to any other human being in Gods Plans.

Me2

Universalism is not of God, Me2, because God established the parameters for human eternity. God did not establish that because Adam sinned, each and all men must sin, but that sin entered into mankind through the sins of the one. Therefore In Christ shall all be saved, does not mean that man has no choice in the matter. but that through faith in Jesus Christ all who do believe thusly are saved.

So if you are counting on being saved without having your own personal faith, a faith in accordance with your own initiative, having it basis in Jesus Christ, then like the Starkist response to "low quality" tuna, the response is "Sorry Charley".

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

darkness from light
unrighteousness from righteousness

1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


Jesus entered into death.(darkness)
Jesus absorbed death, Yelsew
light absorbed darkness
righteousness absorbed unrighteousness

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


what happen in the end yelsew.
no sin, no death, no darkness.

God becomes all in all.

Let there be light

all unrighteousness will be absorbed Yelsew.

Where does this leave all unrighteousness in men.

In the Light.
In Christ.
In Gods Word.
In Gods image.

In Gods Justice

No one is in darkness Yelsew, It is all absorbed into Christ. Into the Light.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Yelsew]

Jesus entered into death.(darkness)
Jesus absorbed death, Yelsew
light absorbed darkness
righteousness absorbed unrighteousness

Your theory is not correct. Science has already proven that Light does not absorb darkness. Darkness is displaced by light. What was known to be darkness when light comes, is shown to not be darkness, but rather the lack of light.

Darkness cannot exist in light, but light can exist in darkness. That is why, in the darkness of night we see the light of the sun reflected off a lightless object that we call the moon. The moon has no light of its own to give. But its darkness is easily overcome thus giving us the illusion of a bright or self lighted object.

So, Me2 don't come at us with that which you don't understand because you are easily debunked when you do. I could have responded point by point, but with you that is a fruitless activity.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

Man views everything from his viewpoint backwards to the reality of God.

in this world light is seperated from darkness. whereas the concept of light and darkness as God teaches his children exist in the same space. God seperated the two

darkness is diminished within light.

as unrighteousness is diminished within righteousness.

for instance: our old mans is referenced as the antichrist spirit. the spirit representing darkness.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

we are absorbed by Jesus spirit of righteousness or in this reference, Light.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

here we see Jesus "purges" us of sin with the brightness of his Glory (light). This is a reference to his quickening as he "covers over us" in death.

yet if we observe. the "enmity" of the sin is taken. the results of the sin will always remain. (we did it). yet we are children of God. who must comprehend the knowledge of good and Evil. thus the knowledge remains in us. including the knowledge of Darkness. yet its consequences and powers are diminished close to zero.

As he is (jesus) we will be like him.

Light which absorbs darkness through the act of forgiving.

this is Gods system of Justice.

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


of course this is an analogy. we will always be human beings. this is another weird way God describes how the spirit world operates using our present environment (light) as a schoolroom.

Me2

 

[russell55]

Originally posted by Me2:
Pro 11:1 A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight.

Gods justice as all expressions towards mankind is equal to all. God treating one differently than another is an abomonation.

This scripture does address justice. What it says is being just means that no one gets cheated--they get what is rightfully theirs. Thats what pleases a God of justice. It says nothing about everyone getting exactly the same thing.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

everyone dies in adam, everyone is raised from death in the newness of life in Christ.

This one doesn't address justice at all as far as I can see. Of course, I don't agree with your conclusion about the verse, either; but I'd like to keep the thread on topic, so I won't address that here.

 

[russell55]

Guys, can we keep the thread on topic and only discuss specific scriptures that will help us define the word "justice". I really don't want it to be a discussion of universalism.

 

[russell55]

The first we agree. The second, God determined from the foundation of the world what HIS justice would be to all who refused to have Faith in His son. So truly we get what we deserve, for truly we are deserving of death for the sins we do; and we get what God wants us to have because He established his desire before he Created. Thus we get what God wants us to have.

Yikes! I don't know how you get all that from that particular text....