Biblical definition of Justice

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by russell55:

I think the point of the passage as it relates to God's justice is this: It is just for God to condemn the Gentiles for their sin even though they did not have the specific moral code found in the law that the Jews had. The Gents knew enough about God from creation itself to know that there is an eternal Creator that they ought to be worshipping, and they didn't. So there is just grounds for condemning them, because at the very least, they were aware of this requirement upon them, and they failed to fulfill it.

You are right. I think that is exactly the point Paul is making here. But you also must acknowledge, which you have, that while making that point he reveals to us a standard for just condemnation. That standard seems to be the understanding and therefore the ability to do what is right.

Russell55, the question is were these Gentiles able to worship God? Could they, with the information and knowledge they were given, have chosen to worship the Lord?

Notice verse 21:

 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Notice that it doesn't say, "although they knew God, they couldn't glorify Him as God because they were born futile in their thoughts and their foolish hearts were darkened from birth." This is what Calvinism teaches, but its not what the text says....sorry I'm getting off topic. Forgive me.

I also think we can learn from this passage that God is not required to provide equal knowledge of himself to everyone in order to be just in condemning everyone. Some knowledge not properly acted upon is enough for God to be just in condemnation.

Good point. Based on this statement I would then guess you believe that lost men are able to "properly act upon" the "knowledge" they have been given?

 

[Me2]

Russell55, the question is were these Gentiles able to worship God? Could they, with the information and knowledge they were given, have chosen to worship the Lord?

are these question of the gentiles directed at unbelievers?. romans 1 speaks of vessels of wrath that turn away from the truth. they refuse to allow the "law to kill the works of their flesh". they return back into their carnal lifestyle.

they are chosen to be vessels of wrath and will remain as such until they have accomplished their predestined task.

yet in Romans 11 states that these gentiles were chosen to be vessels of wrath. the plan is to fulfill the number of vessels of mercy and then return to the vessels of wrath and uncover their eyes. 100% called, 100% saved

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

this is a timing issue. not to say God is being unequal to both groups. he is selectively following an order. with equality for all seen in the end results.

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her,The elder shall serve the younger.

today we can identify these two groups in the christian churches. namely those who follow the precepts of the Gods law.

God is just

Me2

 

[Me2]

Gods Justice is that there only exist one Will.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

there only exist one will known. which means that there in only one sovereign influence that causes life to move and have its being.
both good and evil.

we human beings think we have "free will".

did satan have free will?, does he still exist?. demons still sxist?, man still exists. is it that no one has their own free will?.

adam thought he could obtain such by "being" a god. he never was able to acheive such.
the lie of all lies is still believed today.
you shall be a God...its a lie and will always be a myth.

for there is only one will.

could it be that being 100% sovereign means that God has actually planned and created all life.

Perfection demands one planner and orchestrator

"thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
(sound familiar)

second by second and choice by choice?
starting before the foundation of the world.

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Me2,
If man does not have free will, God would not give us commandments by which we must choose our behavior. He would not give us choices that have consequences, then tell us what the consequences are so that we have foreknowledge that influences our choices.

If we don't have the ability, why would God waste his time with us?

Furthermore, if we were not allowed the choices, then we could not be judged, for the choices we make.

Think it through!

[ January 09, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Me2,
If man does not have free will, God would not give us commandments by which we must choose our behavior. He would not give us choices that have consequences, then tell us what the consequences are so that we have foreknowledge that influences our choices.

If we don't have the ability, why would God waste his time with us?

Furthermore, if we were not allowed the choices, then we could not be judged, for the choices we make.

Think it through!

AMEN!!!

The typical Calvinist response to this is that God tells them how they should live so he will be just in condemning them. I guess God has to cover his bu....back-side.

 

[Me2]

Gods sovereignty demands that his and only his will be followed.

man cannot do this if he is given free reign to choose what he or she want to do.

we are his creation. every thought, every hope and every movement of our being.

its not that we are free to do what we please.

we are mere flesh houses that God lives through.

we are merely passengers agreeing with what occurs in and around us designed and caused by God.

can you prove that every thought is yours.that it is derived from, formulated from, and concluded by you?
can you prove that every action is caused and motivated by you?

we have being. but only being, that allows us the accountability of spectating and Glorying within.

we are not created to perform for God. We are created to glorify God through our being.

How can one do this and do it perfectly.

the answer can only be that God lives in and through us?

wether you agree that your thoughts and actions are your own is up to your own observations.
Ive have stated here.
I believe God controls 100% of Life. the interweaving of billions of souls lives simultaneously and perfectly.

that he lives in my life by being everything in my life.

(what are my alternatives. Be a god in competition with the one and only. and be destroyed.)

God forbid...

Me2

 

[russell55]

Good point. Based on this statement I would then guess you believe that lost men are able to "properly act upon" the "knowledge" they have been given?

They could, if they wanted to. Its all about what seemed most worthwhile to them, most valuable--what they desired most, what seemed suitable to them.

They knew they ought to be worshipping God, but they enjoyed worshipping other things more, so they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.


They didn't like the truth, so they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator.

Worshipping things more like they were than the eternal, all-powerful, totally "other", Creator God that they could not help but know existed from the testimony of creation seemed adequate to them, and a whole lot easier, so they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer

They consistantly valued other things higher than worshipping God.

 

[Yelsew]

Gods sovereignty demands that his and only his will be followed.

Where do you find this in scripture? Did God's chosen race follow God's will and Only God's will? If yes, why were they taken captive to Babylon? Doesn't this indicate that they refused of their own free will to do the will of God, and that captivity was the consequence? The truth is they have a mind of their own and they behave in accordance with their own will. It is only when our will is in accordance with the will of God, that we do the will of God.

man cannot do this if he is given free reign to choose what he or she want to do.

Man does not do the will of God until man comes to know the will of God! Man comes to know the will of God only after man Hears the word of God, and believes sufficient to submittal of his own will to the will of God.

we are his creation. every thought, every hope and every movement of our being.

Then why is it that when we believe in Jesus, we become "a new Creation"?

its not that we are free to do what we please.

Why YES it is, God in making us in his own image gave us free agency in the manner that He has free agency.

we are mere flesh houses that God lives through.

Well Me2 this is one point that we will not agree on. We are not mere "flesh houses" that God lives through. God did not need such before he created man, and certainly does not need "flesh houses" to live through now. God created man, a human spirit in a flesh body. Man is not merely a flesh house for God.

we are merely passengers agreeing with what occurs in and around us designed and caused by God.

You obviously do not understand "sin nature" or you would not post this garbage.

can you prove that every thought is yours.that it is derived from, formulated from, and concluded by you?
can you prove that every action is caused and motivated by you?

Can you prove they are not?

we have being. but only being, that allows us the accountability of spectating and Glorying within.

We have "being" with "Free Agency", God made us that way.

the answer can only be that God lives in and through us?

Well let's see, God lives, therefore man lives. God does not live through us! God lives in spite of us. You see, God is divine eternal life. Man is temporary life in the flesh, and if while in the flesh, man believes in God, especially in Jesus, then after the flesh dies, Believing man lives with Jesus eternally, but if man does not believe then man is cast into the lake of fire NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN!

wether you agree that your thoughts and actions are your own is up to your own observations.
Ive have stated here.
I believe God controls 100% of Life. the interweaving of billions of souls lives simultaneously and perfectly.

As a universalist, that is the way you would see it, but You visual and spiritual filters are keeping you blinded to the truth.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

My Gods justice is mercy for all.

However I present this idea. your desires are to give mankind the opportunity to override Gods sovereignty. when God himself has never given man this capability.

Based on your conclusions:

An infinitely all wise God has given his moronic finite creation the opportunity to torment and torture itself for an eternity of eternities.

Based on something as simple as being blind, deaf or ignorant.

Gods justice is not to give the opportunity to mankind to choose mercy.

Gods justice is to give mercy to all.

Just as though all men didnt have the opportunity to choose death.
He also doesnt have the opportunity to choose life.

Thats God choosing for man
thats Gods justice for all.

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.


Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

My Gods justice is mercy for all.

God's mercy is for all in the same manner that God's love is for all, in the same manner God's grace is present for all. But that does not mean that we are forced by God to accept them. We live our lives in the presence of the Attributes of God without inherently knowing they are present! It is not until we 'discover' our need for a savior that come to the realization that there is a God and that God Loves me, and behaves graciously toward me and is merciful on my behalf.

However I present this idea. your desires are to give mankind the opportunity to override Gods sovereignty. when God himself has never given man this capability.

Then you simply fail to see the truth! Man can never override God's sovereignty except in each man's individual life. Every man has the power to know truth, and to believe or not believe. In believing, man accepts God's sovereignty, while by not believing man rejects God's sovereignty. That is the reason that God made man with the ability to believe or not believe. You do accept the fact that man has such an ability to believe or not believe do you not?

Based on your conclusions:

An infinitely all wise God has given his moronic finite creation the opportunity to torment and torture itself for an eternity of eternities.

God sets before man both life and death, then tells man to choose life. Those who do live, those who do not receive death. What could be more just than that?

Based on something as simple as being blind, deaf or ignorant.

Jesus came to give sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, and wisdom to the ignorant. Jesus leveled the playing field for all mankind. Those who have the least are given increase, those who have the most, are reduced. Because Jesus death eliminated the penalty for sin, there is only factor in mankind by which one receives life eternal and that is FAITH. The penalty for sin is no longer death, because the penalty has been paid. There is one thing common to all mankind that brings life and that is FAITH Alone.

Gods justice is not to give the opportunity to mankind to choose mercy.

Mercy and Grace in God's eyes are the same, it is man perception that makes a distinction between them.

Gods justice is to give mercy to all.

God's justice is to reward those who choose life with life, and to death to those who choose death. That is justice! Your idea is unjust!

Just as though all men didnt have the opportunity to choose death.
He also doesnt have the opportunity to choose life.

All men have the same choices before them.

Thats God choosing for man
thats Gods justice for all.

Why would God put the choices before man, then make the choice for man? That is not logical nor is it biblical!

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Then why don't you receive that wisdom from above and stop your universalist foolishness?

 

[russell55]

Well, I have another scripture to help define the word justice as used biblically:

Said one of the thieves on the cross to the other,

"Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." (Luke 23:40,41)

This thief acknowledges the justice of what was done to him, because he had rightly earned the condemnation because of his deeds. Jesus, not having earned the condemnation was not condemned justly.

Justice is getting what is due because of what is done.

(Another thing I noticed: Barabbas, who was also a rightly condemned criminal, had just been realeased on the basis nothing more than the whim of a crowd determined to unjustly crucify Jesus. Yet, this does not play into the theif's feelings about the rightness (or justice) of his own condemnation. All that seems to have mattered to him in determining the justice of his own condemnation was whether he deserved what he got.)

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Justice: (Rev 20:15)

1. You get what you deserve.

2. You get what God wants you to have.

I believe that is what I said on page 1 of this topic.

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

the "whosoever" mentioned in Rev 20:15 are pointing to those NOT mentioned in the book of life and are thrown into the lake of fire.

every man,woman and childs old carnal spirit is thrown into the lake.
every being enters into spiritual death. yet they do not leave the same way. they leave by being placed into the spirit of another. another meaning the only spirit capable of leaving death. that is Jesus Christ. to leave death. we become a part of Jesus Christ. that is the purpose of the lake. it refines our soul into his spirit.

Who isnt thrown into this lake.
Who's name is written in the lambs book of life?

Only one name..thats Jesus christ.

the only righteous man. the only righteous resurrected spirit

the "whosoever" in rev 20:12-13 is referencing to carnal man and carnal mans works.

the "whosoever" in rev 20:12-13 is specifying all carnal spirits. those carnal works will be destroyed. along with the old carnal spirit of every man woman and child.

who will be left. all souls within the spirit of Christ...which IS the lake of fire.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Gods justice is all consuming

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

Me2

 

[Me2]

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

what happens when Jesus died and entered death.

He filled death with his Glory. Death could not contain his Glory nor his presence.
this is every christian who dies today. they discover the fullness of Christ cant be contained by death alone. we escape death by recognizing the Glory that is only found within the resurrected Christ.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

death cannot hold the love of God for us. As the scripture Ive mentioned all who are in adam or enter into death are placed in Christ.

or should I say. All Are consumend by the love of God in death. whats hell?. People who have entered into spiritual death and who denies themselves the reality of truth that God REALLY loves them.

remember in death we are baptised into the blood of christ. or should I say, we further our understanding that we have been placed into the resurrected body of christ and ourselves have become resurrected also. those who dont hold onto these truths via faith, do not believe Jesus has been Resurrected or that God doesnt have the power to resurrect them also. its here at this point of belief by faith that one is stopped in their abiding in the spirit. and turn the truth of God into a lie. (Rom 1:25)

wrapping this idea up with death and hell being thrown into the lake of fire. this is a process of God. We enter into spitiual death and await judgement. and the justice of God is equal towards all. we are all thrown into the lake where all the dross of our old carnal self willed lives are burned away. the love of God consumes us until ontl the righteousness of Christ within us shines.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

the lake of fire is the Spirit of our Lord jesus Christ. who covers over with the brightness or righteosness of his being.

Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Gods justice is being consumed by Gods glory.
Gods Justice is being consumed by Gods Love.

Me2

[ January 17, 2004, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]