Biblical Order of Salvation

[The Archangel]

Winman,

You said:

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 22:14 disproves Calvinism. According to Calvinism, a man cannot resist the grace of God. But this verse says many are called but only few are chosen.

If you would read the entire pericope--the parable about the wedding feast--you'd see things are actually quite different than you are leading us to believe.

22:1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:1-14 ESV)

A few points:

1. The Jews are the main point of this parable. They are the ones who have rejected the servants of the King (the prophets and, ultimately, Christ).

2. As in many other texts in the Gospels, Jesus is indicating the Kingdom will be taken away from the Jews and given to Gentiles.

3. Apparently, in v. 11, the man desired to go to the wedding feast. At the very least this person inherently lacks something the King requires--is it a garment provided by the King? Possibly. Is it good works--righteous works--that the man is lacking? Possibly. What we do see is someone at the feast (showing he wanted to be there) being cast out into outer darkness.

4. V. 14 says many, not all, are called...

So, this verse is not saying what you want it to say.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Archangel

You argument is good, although the scriptures say all men have knowledge of God and are without excuse.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

No man can sincerely say there is no God, because the creation itself is a clear evidence of God. So men have a responsibility to seek God.

And Christ himself has preached to men through his prophets.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This passage is speaking of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was put to death as a man, but he was raised from the dead and quickened by the Holy Spirit. Then it shows in verse 19 and 20 that Jesus through the Holy Spirit preached to those who lived in Noah's time through Noah. Noah was warned 120 years before the flood and preached Christ to that lost world, but only eight souls (Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives) were saved.

And other prophets spoke to the Gentiles as well.

Jon 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

I once heard a preacher say that the reason Jonah fled from the presence of the Lord was not because he was rebellious and disobedient, but because he was bigoted and hated the Gentiles and could not bear to go preach to them. Maybe so.

But there is evidence that God has always spoken to the unsaved.

 

[Winman]

4. V. 14 says many, not all, are called...

So, this verse is not saying what you want it to say.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I am quite aware that the passage first speaks of the Jews, who by the way, when they were called by God made excuses. So much for irresistable grace.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

You can try to wiggle around it, but this absolutely disproves the false doctrine of irresistable grace. This passage is very clear and easy to understand. God sent servants to "call" them that were "bidden". It doesn't get much plainer than that. They were called, they were bidden by the king himself. And it shows that they refused to come. Others made excuses, or were too busy to come.

So, there it is in scripture, proof that the doctrine of irresistable grace is false.

And then later when the king sent his servants out into the highways, he said to bring in anyone they could possibly find. So there goes the false doctrine of Limited Atonement as well.

Matt 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

No one was excluded from the invitation. All that his servants could possibly find were bid, whether good or bad.

But also, one who was bid, and came was refused. Why? Because he did not have a wedding garment. This is speaking of the robe of righteousness imputed to all those that believe on Jesus. This man came, just as many come to church, but have never trusted Christ. But he was called, he was bidden. But only "believers" are the elect, and therefore he was cast out.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

First, if only those who do the will of the Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven, pure logic would argue that those who do not obey the will of the Father will not enter. So, this proves man can disobey the will of God.

Also notice that these folks argued good works. They were trusting in their own righteousness, not the righteousness of Christ imputed to those who believe on him. This was the same problem the man who did not have the wedding garment had.

You can cling to Calvinism if you want, but it is not scriptural.

 

[The Archangel]

Winman,

A better translation of the Romans passage:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (Romans 1:18-23 ESV)

God's wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

Notice: It is God's wrath that is revealed, not His grace.

Men, because of their unrighteousness, suppress the truth, which is what brings God's wrath.

God has revealed Himself in nature, this is quite true. However, the picture painted by Paul is God's nature revealed in Creation as opposed to Idolatry (which comes into the argument in v. 22-24) who neither create or actually "live."

So, because of the connection Paul makes between the One, True, and Living God and puny idols, he is making the point that the revelation of Creation is only enough to condemn--"They are without excuse" (v. 20). Who are the ones without excuse? Unrighteous men. Now, Paul will shortly say that there are none righteous (Romans 3).

So, it cannot be that he is arguing what you are suggesting.

1 Peter 3:18-20 is an extraordinarily difficult passage. Many world-class scholars are deeply divided on this, which means that to base a doctrine off of a passage such as this is not a good idea.

Actually, this passage is quite bizarre.

As for Jonah (and I'd lean toward the idea of Jonah's bigotry being a--if not the--major point of the book), notice that God sent one of His chosen people. He didn't send an angel or The Angel. No, He sent a believer, conflicted and bigoted as he was.

But, in none of these passages you cite is there an explicit salvific revelation, especially without believers sharing the Gospel (or a printed presentation or a Bible).

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Winman,

A better translation of the Romans passage:
God's wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

Notice: It is God's wrath that is revealed, not His grace.

Men, because of their unrighteousness, suppress the truth, which is what brings God's wrath.

God has revealed Himself in nature, this is quite true. However, the picture painted by Paul is God's nature revealed in Creation as opposed to Idolatry (which comes into the argument in v. 22-24) who neither create or actually "live."

So, because of the connection Paul makes between the One, True, and Living God and puny idols, he is making the point that the revelation of Creation is only enough to condemn--"They are without excuse" (v. 20). Who are the ones without excuse? Unrighteous men. Now, Paul will shortly say that there are none righteous (Romans 3).

So, it cannot be that he is arguing what you are suggesting.

1 Peter 3:18-20 is an extraordinarily difficult passage. Many world-class scholars are deeply divided on this, which means that to base a doctrine off of a passage such as this is not a good idea.

Actually, this passage is quite bizarre.

As for Jonah (and I'd lean toward the idea of Jonah's bigotry being a--if not the--major point of the book), notice that God sent one of His chosen people. He didn't send an angel or The Angel. No, He sent a believer, conflicted and bigoted as he was.

But, in none of these passages you cite is there an explicit salvific revelation, especially without believers sharing the Gospel (or a printed presentation or a Bible).

Blessings,

The Archangel

Well, I notice that no matter what scriptures a non-Calvinist shows you, you reject it. :laugh:

Let me ask you, when Jesus through Noah preached to those spirits in prison, what do you suppose his sermon was about?

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

I personally believe that those who believed what God had revealed to them were saved. God promised Adam and Eve that through her seed he would bruise the seed of the serpent. This is showing that the saviour would be born of a woman, but the father would not be a man. And Eve understood this, when she found herself pregnant she thought the child had come from God himself.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

What else did she know of Jesus? We don't know. But she believed God's promise of a coming saviour. So I believe she was saved.

And Job knew that God would send a redeemer, and he knew of the resurrection. But did he know that Jesus would die on the cross?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Most scholars consider Job to be the oldest book in the Bible, if so, Job did not have any scriptures whatsoever. He may not have even known about the promise made to Adam and Eve. But he believed what God had revealed to him.

And what does the Bible say of Abraham?

Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

I see no mention of Jesus here. But Abraham believed God's promise that he would have a son through Sarah, and that his seed would be like the stars that cannot be counted. And in Romans 4 it shows this again.

Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

What I am trying to show is that you either believe God or you don't. If you believe like Abraham that he would father a son when he was around 100 years old, Abraham would have believed every word of God. Those in the OT were saved because they believed what was revealed to them at the time. If God would have revealed more information about Christ, they would have believed that too.

And Jesus shows this.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Did Moses tell that Jesus would go to the cross, bear our sins, die and be buried, and rise from the dead? No, but he spoke of Jesus.

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

And the people understood this.

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

These folks did not know yet that Jesus would die on the cross, but they believed the promise given by Moses in Deuteronomy. So they believed what had been revealed to them thus far.

 

[MB]

You had said that "Men are drawn to seek God out." I responded by saying that is not found in Holy Writ. Please furnish proof of your assertion.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

There is only one way we can seek to be justified by Christ and that is when we are drawn
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I realize that you don't believe anyone has been drawn but scripture states all have been drawn. The only defence you have against this is your interpetation which is so twisted. You only need to read and believe you don't need to make it say what you want to believe.

Well, I have just proven how wrong you are with just a fraction of biblical evidence MB. This doctrine is solidly scriptural. Don't deny the Word of God.

LOL :laugh: Don't trip over your self there rippon. You haven't ever proved anything I've ever read.
MB

 

[MB]

Lots of scriptures have been posted before by others. You and others gleefully and wishfully ignore it.
Why should I bother just for your sake ?
The truth is even if Jesus Christ Himself appears and tells you that truth you will still argue that He is wrong.:laugh::laugh:
Yeah, like Christ said, "even if Moses ......"

LOL:laugh:
You rarely if ever try prove your doctrine and you always give the same old excuses.
MB

 

[Rippon]

I realize that you don't believe anyone has been drawn

And where exactly have I said that? Of course I believe that some have ben drawn. All the elect are drawn. Quit making things up.

The only defence you have against this is your interpetation (sic)which is so twisted.

Full of compliments today, aren't you?

You haven't ever proved anything I've ever read.

I have never proved anything that you have read? What are you trying to say?

 

[saturneptune]

Your dishonesty is of the jaw-dropping variety. You and I had extensive conversations on the subject about a year or so ago. You deny more Scriptures than affirm them.

Well, Mr Rippon, I see you get along with others as well as you do me. It kind of gives me a fuzzy, warm feeling that I am not out on the fringe as the Lone Ranger. No doubt you are well versed on jaw-dropping, as that is the first cousin to jaw flapping.

 

[Benefactor]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

There is only one way we can seek to be justified by Christ and that is when we are drawn
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I realize that you don't believe anyone has been drawn but scripture states all have been drawn. The only defence you have against this is your interpetation which is so twisted. You only need to read and believe you don't need to make it say what you want to believe.

LOL :laugh: Don't trip over your self there rippon. You haven't ever proved anything I've ever read.
MB

I am going to jump in and say amen. John 1:9 adds to what you have said: American Standard Version
1:9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.

 

[MB]

I know seeking God or anything of God is just beyond the imagination of some calvinist for a man is still in his sinfull nature. Yet Christ loved man so much that Jesus told us to seek The kingdom of God.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Now if you have to have God and His righteousness first before you can seek Him it would be to late because you'd already have Him. No man after all can seek the Kingdom of God with out seeking Jesus Christ and His righteousness first.

What does His righteousness have to do with being saved? This is what:

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Submission cannot happen with out a decision even if you are beaten and conquered.
We have to submit to His righteousness because it is His righteousness that allows our Salvation.

Adam sinned by choice because he love Eve more than God ..And

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Sin entered the world by one man and the free gift of Salvation entered by one man. Perfectly equal and perfectly righteous. I thank God for His righteousness.
MB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I know seeking God or anything of God is just beyond the imagination of some calvinist for a man is still in his sinfull nature. Yet Christ loved man so much that Jesus told us to seek The kingdom of God.

I bet you think Jesus loved people more than God.

 

[MB]

And where exactly have I said that? Of course I believe that some have ben drawn. All the elect are drawn. Quit making things up.



Full of compliments today, aren't you?



I have never proved anything that you have read? What are you trying to say?

I'm not trying to say anything rippon. I am saying You haven't ever proved one single bit of your doctrine.
MB

 

[MB]

I bet you think Jesus loved people more than God.

Jesus is one with the Father, He isn't a separate God as you have implied here.
MB

 

[Rippon]

I'm not trying to say anything rippon. I am saying You haven't ever proved one single bit of your doctrine.
MB

You have chosen to ignore what I and others of my persuasion have posted. Your memory about our conversations in the past is faulty.

 

[Winman]

I'm with you on this too MB.

Jesus said blessed are those who do hunger and thirst for righteousness.

Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

This has to be the unsaved, because Jesus says those that come and believe on him will never hunger or thirst.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Jesus is one with the Father, He isn't a separate God as you have implied here.
MB

Do you believe oneness theology?

 

[webdog]

Do you believe oneness theology?

Are you a modalist? Your post sounds like it...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Are you a modalist? Your post sounds like it...

You deny that Jesus loves God the Father?

 

[webdog]

You deny that Jesus loves God the Father?

You didn't add "The Father" to your other post, making it sound like Jesus was separate from God.