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Biblical Predestination, What is it? Why do some object to it?

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Biblical predestination has to do primarily with God conforming those saved elect sinners to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ, as described here;
rom.8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This statement by the Apostle Paul seems very clear. Is it clear to you? Or does it invoke some sort of visceral reaction to make you want to oppose it?

Feel free to list reasons why you support or oppose these clear verses!
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Biblical predestination has to do primarily with God conforming those saved elect sinners to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ, as described here;
rom.8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This statement by the Apostle Paul seems very clear. Is it clear to you? Or does it invoke some sort of visceral reaction to make you want to oppose it?

Feel free to list reasons why you support or oppose these clear verses!

The first test of any passage of Scripture, does it harmonize will the flow of Scripture.

We can see that something is off with the Calvinist view of this passage.

The first 5 words in vs 29 bring a huge conflict.

What did God see in His foreknowledge, "For whom He did foreknow?"

Did He see who He was going to save, or who was going to believe?

From there on we agree they were to be conformed into the image of His Son, and they were called, and they were justified, and they will be glorified.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
The first test of any passage of Scripture, does it harmonize will the flow of Scripture.

We can see that something is off with the Calvinist view of this passage.

The first 5 words in vs 29 bring a huge conflict.

What did God see in His foreknowledge, "For whom He did foreknow?"

Did He see who He was going to save, or who was going to believe?

From there on we agree they were to be conformed into the image of His Son, and they were called, and they were justified, and they will be glorified.
whom, not what
whom-the sinner
not what,-if they believed or not
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Biblical predestination has to do primarily with God conforming those saved elect sinners to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ, as described here;
rom.8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This statement by the Apostle Paul seems very clear. Is it clear to you? Or does it invoke some sort of visceral reaction to make you want to oppose it?

Feel free to list reasons why you support or oppose these clear verses!
Predestination is a New Testament word and context. It would have been unknown in the OT. It is not individuals that are being predestinated but the church of Jesus Christ, his body, that is predestinated. The predestination that is under consideration here is to be glorified with the same body as the Lord Jesus Christ. It is explained in the text of Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-3.

The problem that Calvinists have is they have no concept of the church of Jesus Christ and the promises that God has given it. The church has a "heavenly calling and an earnest of the Spirit indwelling the mortal body and is already born into the family of God. But it does not have a body yet that is fashioned to occupy the heavenlies, which it will eventually do. Our eternal home is in New Jerusalem in the presence of the Godhead. It is a satellite city in the eternal sate. We must have a physical and glorified body before we occupy this city.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (which is the glorification of the body)
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


Php 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Pe 1:3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is what is meant by predestination. We already have the home in heaven but we are not there until our resurrection. and change. It is the hope of the Christian and the church of Jesus Christ.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Predestination is a New Testament word and context. It would have been unknown in the OT. It is not individuals that are being predestinated but the church of Jesus Christ, his body, that is predestinated.

It is most certainly individual living stones who are Foreknown, and predestined to salvation, then they assemble as local churches
The predestination that is under consideration here is to be glorified with the same body as the Lord Jesus Christ. It is explained in the text of Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-3.

The problem that Calvinists have is they have no concept of the church of Jesus Christ and the promises that God has given it.
This falsehood is not according to truth;

Chapter 26. Of the Church​

1. The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that fills all in all. 1
1. Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:10, 22-23, 5:23, 27, 32
2. All persons throughout the world, professing the faith of the gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ according unto it, not destroying their own profession by any errors everting the foundation, or unholiness of conversation, are and may be called visible saints; 2 and of such ought all particular congregations to be constituted. 3
2. 1 Corinthians 1:2; Acts 11:263. Romans 1:7; Ephesians 1:20-22
3. The purest churches under heaven are subject to mixture and error; 4 and some have so degenerated as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan; 5 nevertheless Christ always has had, and ever shall have a kingdom in this world, to the end thereof, of such as believe in him, and make profession of his name. 6
4. 1 Corinthians 5; Revelation 2-35. Revelation 18:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:11-126. Matthew 16:18; Psalms 72:17, 102:28; Revelation 12:17
4. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; 7 neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. 8
7. Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11-128. 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9
5. In the execution of this power wherewith he is so intrusted, the Lord Jesus calls out of the world unto himself, through the ministry of his word, by his Spirit, those that are given unto him by his Father, 9 that they may walk before him in all the ways of obedience, which he prescribes to them in his word. 10 Those thus called, he commands to walk together in particular societies, or churches, for their mutual edification, and the due performance of that public worship, which he requires of them in the world. 11
9. John 10:16; John 12:3210. Matthew 28:2011. Matthew 18:15-20

 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
pt2
6. The members of these churches are saints by calling, visibly manifesting and evidencing (in and by their profession and walking) their obedience unto that call of Christ; 12 and do willingly consent to walk together, according to the appointment of Christ; giving up themselves to the Lord, and one to another, by the will of God, in professed subjection to the ordinances of the Gospel. 13
12. Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:213. Acts 2:41-42, 5:13-14; 2 Corinthians 9:13
7. To each of these churches therefore gathered, according to his mind declared in his word, he has given all that power and authority, which is in any way needful for their carrying on that order in worship and discipline, which he has instituted for them to observe; with commands and rules for the due and right exerting, and executing of that power. 14
14. Matthew 18:17-18; 1 Corinthians 5:4-5, 5:13, 2 Corinthians 2:6-8
8. A particular church, gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members; and the officers appointed by Christ to be chosen and set apart by the church (so called and gathered), for the peculiar administration of ordinances, and execution of power or duty, which he intrusts them with, or calls them to, to be continued to the end of the world, are bishops or elders, and deacons. 15
15. Acts 20:17, 28; Philemon 1:1
9. The way appointed by Christ for the calling of any person, fitted and gifted by the Holy Spirit, unto the office of bishop or elder in a church, is, that he be chosen thereunto by the common suffrage of the church itself; 16 and solemnly set apart by fasting and prayer, with imposition of hands of the eldership of the church, if there be any before constituted therein; 17 and of a deacon that he be chosen by the like suffrage, and set apart by prayer, and the like imposition of hands. 18
16. Acts 14:2317. 1 Timothy 4:1418. Acts 6:3, 5-6
10. The work of pastors being constantly to attend the service of Christ, in his churches, in the ministry of the word and prayer, with watching for their souls, as they that must give an account to Him; 19 it is incumbent on the churches to whom they minister, not only to give them all due respect, but also to communicate to them of all their good things according to their ability, 20 so as they may have a comfortable supply, without being themselves entangled in secular affairs; 21 and may also be capable of exercising hospitality towards others; 22 and this is required by the law of nature, and by the express order of our Lord Jesus, who has ordained that they that preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel. 23
19. Acts 6:4; Hebrews 13:1720. 1 Timothy 5:17-18; Galatians 6:6-721. 2 Timothy 2:422. 1 Timothy 3:223. 1 Corinthians 9:6-14
11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it. 24
24. Acts 11:19-21; 1 Peter 4:10-11
12. As all believers are bound to join themselves to particular churches, when and where they have opportunity so to do; so all that are admitted unto the privileges of a church, are also under the censures and government thereof, according to the rule of Christ. 25
25. 1 Thessalonians 5:14; 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15
13. No church members, upon any offence taken by them, having performed their duty required of them towards the person they are offended at, ought to disturb any church-order, or absent themselves from the assemblies of the church, or administration of any ordinances, upon the account of such offence at any of their fellow members, but to wait upon Christ, in the further proceeding of the church. 26
26. Matthew 18:15-17; Ephesians 4:2-3
14. As each church, and all the members of it, are bound to pray continually for the good and prosperity of all the churches of Christ, 27 in all places, and upon all occasions to further every one within the bounds of their places and callings, in the exercise of their gifts and graces, so the churches, when planted by the providence of God, so as they may enjoy opportunity and advantage for it, ought to hold communion among themselves, for their peace, increase of love, and mutual edification. 28
27. Ephesians 6:18; Psalms 122:628. Romans 16:1-2; 3 John 8-10

 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
pt3
15. In cases of difficulties or differences, either in point of doctrine or administration, wherein either the churches in general are concerned, or any one church, in their peace, union, and edification; or any member or members of any church are injured, in or by any proceedings in censures not agreeable to truth and order: it is according to the mind of Christ, that many churches holding communion together, do, by their messengers, meet to consider, and give their advice in or about that matter in difference, to be reported to all the churches concerned; 29 howbeit these messengers assembled, are not intrusted with any church-power properly so called; or with any jurisdiction over the churches themselves, to exercise any censures either over any churches or persons; or to impose their determination on the churches or officers. 30
29. Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22-23, 2530. 2 Corinthians 1:24; 1 John 4:1




The church has a "heavenly calling and an earnest of the Spirit indwelling the mortal body and is already born into the family of God. But it does not have a body yet that is fashioned to occupy the heavenlies, which it will eventually do. Our eternal home is in New Jerusalem in the presence of the Godhead. It is a satellite city in the eternal sate. We must have a physical and glorified body before we occupy this city.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (which is the glorification of the body)
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
This kind of dispensational error is why many leave that system
Php 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
So Jews who get saved do not have a citizenship in heaven?
1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Pe 1:3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is what is meant by predestination. We already have the home in heaven but we are not there until our resurrection. and change. It is the hope of the Christian and the church of Jesus Christ.
No, this denial of biblical predestination is a distortion of the truth
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
This is my view only and is not aimed at any one person particularly but I believe the Calvinistic system is one of idolatry and the system is worshipped by many instead of the true God.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
This is my view only and is not aimed at any one person particularly but I believe the Calvinistic system is one of idolatry and the system is worshipped by many instead of the true God.
Yes I know that is your view. I know that you have turned from truth, and it is my view only that in part is why.
 
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