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Biblical Spirituality #2; Will the Son of man Find Faith, "in the Spirit & Power of Elijah"?

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Was the Messiah part when Jesus was a toddler? Jesus was also a toddler, one in the same, no?
?
Jesus was cut off, and never completed all of His earthly ministry. He did complete the toddler part, so that does not need revisited. He did complete the Messiah part, so that does not need revisited. Yet somehow you have not proven that sitting as Prince has been completed on the earth.
?

Do you get, "sitting as Prince", from somewhere, in particular?
Nothing in Daniel 9 hints that these things take place in heaven.
Nobody said they did, did they?

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

and then "the prince that shall come", since Jesus promised He would return to the earth.
I don't know of anywhere the literal reading of scripture will give 'the prince' to be Jesus or where these to things are related, in any place, do you?
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
It was at His baptism in Jordan that our Lord was “Anointed” for His Ministry; because then it was that the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily shape its a dove. The Apostle Peter bears witness that “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with Power” (Acts 10:38).
Then the King part will be at the 7th Trumpet.

No verse claims God set Jesus up as the earth's King other than Revelation 11:15.

You seem to be going out of your way to prove Jesus is not on the earth at the time the 7th Trumpet sounds.

According to your logic, Jesus could have been baptized in heaven, and it would have meant the same thing. In fact why is this account of an earthly baptism taken as literal? Would it not just be another spiritual application regarding the earthly church?

Obviously you spiritualize many other Scriptures stating Jesus is on the earth.

Being King is more than just a title. It comes with the pre-requisite of being on the earth, the same as Jesus as Messiah was on the earth.

Those verses that declare Jesus has all power and authority after His resurrection are true, and cannot nullify the earthly requirement. The post resurrection Jesus had all power and authority since Genesis 1:1 and before that moment.

So saying that these words in Daniel 9 are more than titles is my point. Seems you are the one downplaying the need for a literal physical appearance of Jesus on the earth to receive the actions that go with the Messiah and the Prince that shall come.

When Jesus was anointed that allowed the action of Messiah to be accomplished in regards to Daniel's prophecy given by Gabriel.

Thus as well, the 7th Trumpet is the action of Jesus being declared King as being over every nation which is also an earthly ministry that will have no end. The limit of a thousand years deals with Satan's binding, and time on earth for certain relationships with humans, not on the eternal aspect of Jesus King over the nations. That will continue in the NHNE and will still be on the New Earth, and not in heaven then either.

If you are going to apply Revelation 21 as already happening since the first century, then nothing ever occurs in heaven, as all is on earth in the NHNE per Revelation 21. God never states what takes place in the New Heaven. There will be no sun and moon in that firmament.
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
That is simply the literal letter of "the prince", as being Vespasion.
The wrong literal interpretation is still the wrong literal interpretation.

Jesus is both Messiah and Prince.

The Jews destroyed their own Temple and city. Last I checked Jesus was a descendant of Judah. Has that changed?
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
I don't know of anywhere the literal reading of scripture will give 'the prince' to be Jesus or where these to things are related, in any place, do you?

The same can be said about your interpretation of Titus and Vespasian.

You all go through hoops to say something different than Gabriel.

Gabriel simply gives us the prophecy of Jesus. The same Prince is mentioned in verse 25, 26, and 27.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
"In His City, and as His City, they will ever rejoice, not only in the hour of their Salvation—their own, personal Rescue from the Domain of Darkness—, but also in the subsequent Faithfulness of God, who, through Christ, by the Spirit, Led them Safely through the deadly wilderness of “this present evil age,”

"and into
The Promised Land of The New Heavens and the New Earth
(John 6:38-40; Galatians 1:4; Philippians 1:6; Revelation 12:7-17, 19:11).


"Our first mini-snapshot (vv. 6-8) points to a radical transformation of the physical Heavens, a transformation that the NT says will occur at “the Restoration of all things,” when Christ Returns (Matthew 19:28; Acts 3:21; Romans 8:21; Philippians 3:21)...The result, for God’s people, will be something altogether new: a ‘Day” that is neither day nor night as we once knew them, but an Eternal Day whose exact nature is known only to the LORD.

"Happily, the NT sheds further light on this mysterious promise, teaching us that it is Christ Himself who will “diminish” the luminaries at his Parousia (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:13); that in the World to Come, the Glory of God and the Lamb will illumine all things, both inwardly and outwardly (Revelation 21:11, 23, 22:5); and that this “unique” eschatological Day will stand as a perpetual testimony and reminder: Because of Christ, the Domain of Darkness has passed away once and for all (Romans 13:12)."

"Verse 8 reprises the great OT theme of the eschatological River of God (Psalms 46:4, 65:9; Ezekiel 47:1-12; Joel 3:18). The Living Waters are, of course, the Very Life of the Living God, Streaming into the New Creation from God the Father, through Christ the Son, by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33; Philippians 1:19). Interestingly, the prophet sees them flowing out of (New) Jerusalem; that is, out of the Churches, the Eternal people of God (Revelation 21:2). He also sees that the river will flow both east and west, filling the seas on either side of the City, both in summer and in winter (i.e., year-round). However, Revelation 21:1 tells us there will be no seas in the World to Come; meanwhile, Zechariah 14:6-7 (along with several texts in the Revelation) assures us there will be no seasons."

"The meaning, then, is figurative and theological: In that Day, the Life of God will continually replenish the Creation of God through the people of God (see Romans 8:20-23)."


Importantly, verse 4 is not telling us that Christ will literally stand upon the Mount of Olives; or that He will literally split it apart to create a literal valley.

"Similarly, verse 5 is not predicting that literal Jews of a physical Jerusalem will flee to the tiny village of Azel.

"Those who take this approach are falling into confusion by abandoning the NCH, which teaches us to interpret this prophecy figuratively, in terms of NT truth."

Yes, as you ask, The New Jerusalem.

"Here, I believe, is the key to understanding this Prophecy, a Prophecy designed to comfort devout OT saints with a picture of the Eternal Worship of the Glorified Churches, cast in the language and imagery of Israel’s most joyful OT Feast!

How exactly does this work? To begin with, we learn that Zechariah’s eschatological Feast of Booths will indeed be a Harvest Feast, since there, in the World to Come, all the saints will have been gathered in at last (Matthew 13:30; John 4:38; Revelation 14:14-16). Formerly, they were indeed enemies of God and His people; but Christ, prior to the Judgment, Harvested them through the Gospel and turned them into Eternal friends (Matthew 9:37; Acts 26:17-18; Romans 5:8; 1 Timothy 1:12-12; Titus 3:3f).

"It will also be an Everlasting Feast: The saints will forever “go up” in Worship, through Christ, unto God their King (1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 7:9-10, 14:1-4).

"In His City, and as His City, they will ever rejoice, not only in the hour of their Salvation—their own, personal Rescue from the Domain of Darkness—, but also in the subsequent Faithfulness of God, who, through Christ, by the Spirit, Led them Safely through the deadly wilderness of “this present evil age,”

"and into The Promised Land of The New Heavens and the New Earth
(John 6:38-40; Galatians 1:4; Philippians 1:6; Revelation 12:7-17, 19:11).

But what of Egypt, and of the families of the Earth that follow Egypt’s lead in refusing to go up? Clearly, these typify all men and nations who refused to participate in the eschatological exodus; who refused to accept Spiritual Rescue from the Domain of Darkness, and Spiritual transfer into The Kingdom of God’s Beloved Son (Colossians 1:13); who refused to follow in the footsteps of Moses, who considered the reproach that fell upon Christ to be greater riches than all the treasures of Egypt (i.e., the fallen world-system); and who refused to walk with Christ through the wilderness of this world to The Promised Land (Hebrews 11:26; Revelation 12:1f).

"Puzzlingly, in the Prophecy, we see these rebellious nations in the Earth, but far from Zion and Jerusalem, where the friends of God celebrate the Feasts of God. But in the Revelation, the puzzle is solved:

"In The World to Come, where the prophecy is fulfilled, we once again see these nations far from Jerusalem—outside the gates of the Holy City— , but this time in the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 66:24; Revelation 20:14, 22:15).

"It is, therefore, in death (and hell) that the impenitent enemies of God will experience the very plague of drought they chose for themselves in life, when they refused to drink of the Rock, and to follow the Rock, that God offered them in the Gospel.

"And that Rock is Christ (Matthew 12:43 NAS, Luke 16:24; John 7:37; 1 Corinthians 10:4; Revelation 21:6, 22:17)."

You must be a politician or a lawyer as you need a hundred words to say what can be said in ten. You could save yourself a great deal of typing.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
So saying that these words in Daniel 9 are more than titles is my point. Seems you are the one downplaying the need for a literal physical appearance of Jesus on the earth to receive the actions that go with the Messiah and the Prince that shall come.
If you have read Daniel 9, then you should know who it says is going to come, but you don't.

Is it a?
Is it a?
7th Trumpet
Is it?
Revelation 21
Is it?
Jesus is both Messiah and Prince.
Is it?
Gabriel simply gives us the prophecy of Jesus. The same Prince is mentioned in verse 25, 26, and 27
Is it?
Last I checked Jesus was a descendant of Judah. Has that changed?

Who is it that Gabriel says will come?
You all go through hoops to say something different than Gabriel.

When I'm talking about getting a literal interpretation, I'm talking about first reading the verse as if you are reading any other literature and in this case it is in English.

In the English language, there are prepositions that you may be familiar with, and when they are used with other descriptive words to form a prepositional phase, that phrase then gives a more defendant understanding of what we are reading and what it is all about.

In Daniel 9:26; the words are: "26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

So, with that hint about a prepositional phase being apart of our English language when we read sentences in literature, who is it that you read there in Daniel 9:26, is "to come"?

The wrong literal interpretation is still the wrong literal interpretation.

Do you have any idea who Daniel 9:26 says is "to come"?
The wrong literal interpretation is still the wrong literal interpretation.
I'm not wanting to know for one second who you think is to come.

I'm asking the question,

"Who is it in Daniel 9:26 that THE BIBLE SAYS IS "TO COME"?

Do you know?

Are you reading it?

Do you know about how to read English literature, literally?

That is how that you could get the answer right.

What do you think?

Who does it say?

Now, don't screw this one up, in front of God and everybody, or I'm going to be worried about you.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
I'm not wanting to know for one second who you think is to come.

I'm asking the question,

"Who is it in Daniel 9:26 that THE BIBLE SAYS IS "TO COME"?

Do you think it might be any of these?
The point is that at the Second Coming, Jesus will physically be on this earth and this creation to sit on His glorious throne in a Temple in Jerusalem.

Jesus was still God while on the earth as Messiah, and will still be God on the earth at the Second Coming as the Prince to come. Both physical appearances on the earth will take place per Daniel 9.

Nor is there a "demotion" to physically represent on earth, what Jesus is equally to God in heaven at the Second Coming.

The Prince to come happens after Jerusalem was destroyed

. The Second Coming has not happened yet. That is when the King sits on the throne in Jerusalem as the prophecied Prince to come.

Of course Daniel mentions the Prince to come part on the earth, as much as the Messiah to come part was on the earth.

Both Messiah and Prince to come part take place physically on the earth.

Why would one prophecy be totally different than the other? They are in the very same verse.

Was the Messiah part when Jesus was a toddler? Jesus was also a toddler, one in the same, no?

Jesus was on the earth for over 33 years, but never sat on a throne during that time as a Prince.

Jesus was cut off, and never completed all of His earthly ministry. He did complete the toddler part, so that does not need revisited. He did complete the Messiah part, so that does not need revisited. Yet somehow you have not proven that sitting as Prince has been completed on the earth.

Besides, the Prince to come part was after Jerusalem was destroyed. Messiah was not attached to the "to come" aspect.

Jesus would be both Messiah and Prince. But no verse says "the Messiah to come" in it.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

The verse does not say Messiah and Prince are cut off. The verse says Messiah shall be cut off, and then "the prince that shall come", since Jesus promised He would return to the earth

So saying that these words in Daniel 9 are more than titles is my point. Seems you are the one downplaying the need for a literal physical appearance of Jesus on the earth to receive the actions that go with the Messiah and the Prince that shall come.

You all go through hoops to say something different than Gabriel.

Gabriel simply gives us the prophecy of Jesus. The same
Prince is mentioned in verse 25, 26, and 27.
I'm not wanting to know for one second who you think is to come.

I'm asking the question,

"Who is it in Daniel 9:26 that THE BIBLE SAYS IS "TO COME"?

Do you know yet?

What happened to that `know it all` timtofly you have always been here anyway?

Did you finally learn how to read? or what? or not?

What`s up, you wise old prophetic sage genius you?
 
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Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Looks to me that for there to be a Messiah the Prince spoken of in that verse, we certainly can't go with literally a literal literate literary reading of it, as literature.

Or for Him to be made a king,
much less for the people to come
and be made king
and sit on the throne of David
on Earth, in Jerusalem,
during a thousand years reign on Earth,
at the Angel's 7th Trumpet,
then ruling over the Revelation 21 nations,
etc., etc.

You just can't get any of that stuff out of a common, every day, normal reading of that passage, because the verse says that it will be a time when,
"the people...shall come",
and then The Bible says that they do something, right?

Not Jesus.

Riiigghhttt???

Ref: The seventy weeks and the great tribulation; a study of the last two visions of Daniel, and of the Olivet discourse of the Lord Jesus Christ : Mauro, Philip, 1859-1952 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
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