Biblical View vs. Pelagian View Part 1

[Protestant]

Biblical View: Man dead to God

Pelagian View: Man not so dead

Biblical View: Sin serious like leprosy

Pelagian View: Sin a nuisance like cold sore

 

[Protestant]

Biblical View vs. Pelagian View

Biblical View: Man chained to sin which he cannot break

Pelagian View: Chain broken by free will – like breaking a bad habit

Biblical View: Unbeliever under God’s wrath

Pelagian View: Unbeliever under God’s love

 

[Robert William]

The poison of pelagianism heresy has now poisoned the majority of religions across the globe, and it's all to protect their free will idol.

 

[steaver]

God is absolutely sovereign. He is not limited as Calvinism would have Him to be. Man is not absolutely free to do what he so wills. God's sovereign decree has limited man as to what he is and is not free to do. I cannot accept Calvinism because it limits God's sovereignty.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh yea...how do you figure that?

 

[Rippon]

I cannot accept Calvinism because it limits God's sovereignty.

That's a hoot. And Arminianism/semi-Pelagianism exults it supposedly?

On the contrary, the non-Calvinistic view seems to think people are sovereign and that God is not allowed to interfere in their realm.

 

[convicted1]

That's a hoot. And Arminianism/semi-Pelagianism exults it supposedly?

On the contrary, the non-Calvinistic view seems to think people are sovereign and that God is not allowed to interfere in their realm.

...unless they allow Him....

 

[Iconoclast]

con1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rippon View Post
That's a hoot. And Arminianism/semi-Pelagianism exults it supposedly?

On the contrary, the non-Calvinistic view seems to think people are sovereign and that God is not allowed to interfere in their realm.

...unless they allow Him....

unless they allow Him....

Looks exactly like what they say!

 

[PreachTony]

Ahhh...the standard "if you're not a Calvinist, then you don't follow the Bible" schtick... (by the by, do we even have any Pelagians on this forum?)

I cannot speak for everyone, but my school of free will thought absolutely believes in the sovereignty of God. We just happen to believe that, within His sovereignty He allowed us to be free moral agents. Most Calvinists that I've had personal experience with seem to think that God is so sovereign He cannot allow man to be free. Why not?

Of course, you can always adopt the Robert William position and say that anyone who believes in free will is merely an idol worshiper. Never mind that that position leaves man incapable of anything, even what scripture calls on men to do. Men are called to repent. Men are called to come to God. Men are called to seek after Him. According to Calvinism, the scripture should actually read "Man is called to repent, so long as God grants him the ability. Man is called to come to God, but only if God gives him the ability. Seems to me Calvinism is more limiting to God than most free will thinkers are.

 

[Protestant]

I cannot speak for everyone, but my school of free will thought absolutely believes in the sovereignty of God. We just happen to believe that, within His sovereignty He allowed us to be free moral agents.

Hi Tony:

That was same opinion held by ‘Professor’ Flowers.

There are many on this Board who hold to that opinion.

It is our contention that if that were the case, then the judgment upon Adam which flowed through him to the entire human race is a lie.

The innumerable negative descriptions of man’s moral and spiritually corrupt state are superfluous and have neither relevancy nor meaning.

Dead does not mean 'dead', enslaved does not mean 'enslaved,' evil hearts do not mean 'evil hearts.'

Furthermore, those of us in the Monergist camp can testify to the fact that we were blind, lost, Christ-haters doomed to destruction had not the God of all grace intervened and done a miraculous work of redemptive mercy upon our sorry souls and hearts.

I did not choose Christ. He chose me and ordained that I bear fruit and that fruit would remain.

I realize the fruit I bear is hard to swallow for many.

But for those of us who have tasted the fruit of God’s grace, we will never ever claim we cooperated in grafting ourselves into the true vine, Jesus Christ.

To God alone be the glory, the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[robustheologian]

I'm a Calvinist and I believe in compatibilism. I do believe in man's free will. But just like God's mind is greater than man's mind, God's love is greater than man's love, and God's power is greater than our "power"....God's will is greater than man's will.

 

[Protestant]

Never mind that that position leaves man incapable of anything, even what scripture calls on men to do. Men are called to repent. Men are called to come to God. Men are called to seek after Him. According to Calvinism, the scripture should actually read "Man is called to repent, so long as God grants him the ability. Man is called to come to God, but only if God gives him the ability. Seems to me Calvinism is more limiting to God than most free will thinkers are.

Tony,

God is the One who declares man’s duty which he rightfully owes his God.

It is the sin nature of man to respond, “But that’s not fair. How can you require of me that which I cannot do?”

The fault in not in the command to ‘repent and believe.’

It is the righteous, holy and truthful command which leads to eternal life.

The fault in not obeying the command lies within man’s nature which is enmity against God.

Though man has the physical faculties to see, hear and emote, his sin has blinded, deafened and hardened him to eternal truth.

As I have stated previously, I was bewildered why I suddenly believed while my many family members remained in unbelief.

Discovering the true teaching of Romans 9 opened the Word of God to me, giving me the answer I sought:

I was among the Elect loved unconditionally by the Father, given the Son to die in my stead, regenerated by the sovereign will of the Spirit.

The knowledge of this truth has kept me forever humble and forever grateful.

My sins, which were many, were forgiven; as a result I love Him much.

 

[PreachTony]

I did not choose Christ. He chose me and ordained that I bear fruit and that fruit would remain.

I believe the same, Protestant. Christ chose me. However, the Bible tells us quite plainly to not quench the Spirit. We have that ability to spurn the Lord and reject Him. Even though I believe I had to have faith and accept Christ, I would never try to say that I saved me. That is not even remotely close to what I believe (though as I said I cannot speak for all).

I realize the fruit I bear is hard to swallow for many.

But for those of us who have tasted the fruit of God’s grace, we will never ever claim we cooperated in grafting ourselves into the true vine, Jesus Christ.

Your last line here seems to say that those of us who do not follow the Monergist theology have never truly tasted the "fruit of God's grace." I am saved to the uttermost, whether you agree with how I believe that salvation came to me or not. I have tasted God's grace. I do not believe in Irresistible Grace. Though I accepted, or could have rejected, God's grace does not mean I cooperated. To say it like that implies that free will believers think they somehow impacted their own salvation. I suppose you could argue that, as our salvation comes to us through faith, and we only have faith by hearing the preached word. To hear some Monergists, we need not even hear the preached word, or have faith, as God is so irresistible to us that we cannot help but be saved when He moves. I do not see that in scripture.

To God alone be the glory, the author and finisher of our faith.

Amen. :thumbs:

 

[Protestant]

I believe the same, Protestant. Christ chose me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you not hold to foreseen faith as the cause of Election?

To hear some Monergists, we need not even hear the preached word, or have faith, as God is so irresistible to us that we cannot help but be saved when He moves. I do not see that in scripture.

Lazarus is a prime example of irresistible regeneration. Christ calls, 'Arise', and we respond as did dead Lazarus, having been quickened and made alive in Christ.

The Gospel is the call of Christ to His sheep.

His sheep hear His voice and respond positively.

They will absolutely respond at the precise time God wills to use the same omnipotent power used to raise Christ. (Eph. 1:19-20)

The many real-life examples of Christ's restoration miracles, as well as the numerous analogies and parables are all for a purpose: to teach the truth of salvation.

What is impossible with man, is only possible with God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you not hold to foreseen faith as the cause of Election?



Lazarus is a prime example of irresistible regeneration. Christ calls, 'Arise', and we respond as did dead Lazarus, having been quickened and made alive in Christ.

The Gospel is the call of Christ to His sheep.

His sheep hear His voice and respond positively.

They will absolutely respond at the precise time God wills to use the same omnipotent power used to raise Christ. (Eph. 1:19-20)

The many real-life examples of Christ's restoration miracles, as well as the numerous analogies and parables are all for a purpose: to teach the truth of salvation.

What is impossible with man, is only possible with God.

Then what do you say PROTESTANT to the parents of a severely brain damaged child who will never comprehend the gospel if it was preached to him?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm a Calvinist and I believe in compatibilism. I do believe in man's free will. But just like God's mind is greater than man's mind, God's love is greater than man's love, and God's power is greater than our "power"....God's will is greater than man's will.

Yes but He only really exerts His will when it comes to saving the elect individual.

 

[Protestant]

Then what do you say PROTESTANT to the parents of a severely brain damaged child who will never comprehend the gospel if it was preached to him?

I say, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I say, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Do you consider this a sufficient answer to distraught parents? Have you used that in the past? Lastly, what if it were your child? Would that answer satisfy.....and how about you'r wife? Would see accept it?

Please don't answer quickly... sit with your wife and attempt putting yourselves in that spot. Add a 39 year lifespan to that child's life....39 years that you observe that life....interact with it, nourish it, change its diaper ....God forgive me, I shouldn't say it! Alas...but my point is , come with the empathy of a parent. Then brother, tell me if you can your answer.

 

[robustheologian]

Yes but He only really exerts His will when it comes to saving the elect individual.

Doesn't God work all things (not just salvation) according to his will?

 

[Protestant]

Do you consider this a sufficient answer to distraught parents? Have you used that in the past? Lastly, what if it were your child? Would that answer satisfy.....and how about you'r wife? Would see accept it?

Please don't answer quickly... sit with your wife and attempt putting yourselves in that spot. Add a 39 year lifespan to that child's life....39 years that you observe that life....interact with it, nourish it, change its diaper ....God forgive me, I shouldn't say it! Alas...but my point is , come with the empathy of a parent. Then brother, tell me if you can your answer.

Brother EWF, there is no way I can realistically walk in your shoes. I'd be a liar if I said I can feel your pain. I would also be a liar if I said I had an easy answer to comfort you.

I only know this:

Nothing happens without God's determinate eternal council.

That includes the health of babies.

I also know all things work together for good to them that love God, who were called according to his purpose [to save].

Furthermore, I know the saved are justified by His grace and by His blood. (Romans 3:24; Romans 5:9)

This would indicate that God's eternal purpose to save includes those who cannot profess Christ due to infancy, mental deficiency, etc.

In other words, they are incapable of understanding the fundamentals of the Gospel.

Yet they die in their sins.

Among these I believe the Lord has His Elect whom He justifies by His grace and by His blood.

My wife is a nurse who works with not only the sick, but with the dying.

God has given her a heart for those less fortunate.

I could never do the work God has called her to do.

No question but the Lord has given you a burden not shared by many.

That is reason enough to stay as close as possible to Him:

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Stay strong in the Lord and the power of His might.