SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
really? then show how!
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Biblical vs Reformed Salvation
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
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really? then show how!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Yes. we are made alive In And with Christ..in Union with Him.
He died a Covenant death on their behalf.
You are the one who posts foolishly with no clue what you are reading in english or greek.So you. can just check yourself.
yet again you fail to respond to what I have written! typical reformed answer!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
because you are bilnded by your theology!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
It is taught in the Bible, Titus 3:5 and Revelation 1:5, but you guys cannot see this!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
that is what I have said! the Gospel Message preached from the Bible!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God - 1 Cor 6.11
how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God? - Hebrews 9:14
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Respectfully, what you're describing above is how many ( and a fair number of "Baptists" as well ) see salvation working;
Not the vast majority, but nonetheless, many of those who profess Christ.
This said, I acknowledge that you have the privilege of labeling it as "unbiblical",
while we who understand it this way, see any other way as being unbiblical and in error.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, SBG, but it seems to me that you're combining salvation, with being born again.
I take it that you believe that when a person is born again, that is, in effect, when they are actually saved by the Lord.
Otherwise stated, a person is not saved until they are born from above.
If this is true, then ( regrettably ), I must disagree.
To me, salvation ( God's decision to save someone ) is not the same as His "begetting them" with the word of truth ( James 1:18 )...
Which, by the way, I clearly see the verse stating that it was of His own will that He did that.
This combined with John 1:13 tells me that my will had nothing to do with me being born again.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
When I read this,
This passage, among others, establishes the fact that the believers at Ephesus were dead in trespasses and sins, before God did anything...
Verse 6 is very plain in its language that God, in His great love wherewith He loved the person that He later "quickened" ( made alive ) in Christ, and He did it for a specific purpose...
Verse 7) So that in the ages to come, He might show those who have believed on His Son the riches of His grace in kindness through Christ Jesus.
The passage deals with several key elements...
1) The Ephesians were formerly dead in trespasses and sins.
2) They walked according to the course of this world and its ways, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were, by their very natures, the children of wrath.
3) They were under the power of the spirit that works in the children of disobedience.
4) They were "quickened" ( made alive, spiritually, or "re-birthed" ) together with Christ.
This is the new birth, and it is described here as happening when they were dead in trespasses and sins.
Even though I agree with you that in this passage there is a vital element that seems to be missing ( being made able to call upon the Lord ), I cannot agree with you that other passages do not show this and that this passage cannot be said to show this.
More later.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Good day to you!
I have shown from the passage in Colossians 2:13, that the "quickening" of the sinner, is simultaneous with "forgiveness", as in the Greek. There is no sequence or time delay in this. This is also seen from Ephesians 1:13, where the sinner, "upon believing" in Jesus as their Saviour, are "sealed", that is, "saved, born again". The KJV reads as it does for theological purposes, and not what the Bible in the Greek actually says!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
salvation IS being born again! since when did this change in the Bible?
i did respond,you still do not see it.yet again you fail to respond to what I have written! typical reformed answer!
eph1:3-14 is one sentence in the greek. for you to chop off vs3-12 demonstrates you aversion to truth
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
please feel free to show where I have got it wrong?
13 Ἐν ᾧ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀκούσαντες τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς σωτηρίας ὑμῶν ἐν ᾧ καὶ πιστεύσαντες ἐσφραγίσθητε τῷ πνεύματι τῆς ἐπαγγελίας τῷ ἁγίῳ, 14 ὅ ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας ἡμῶν, εἰς ἀπολύτρωσιν τῆς περιποιήσεως, εἰς ἔπαινον τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ.
Where is the one sentence you are speaking about? How does this show that I am wrong? As I have shown, in the Greek it is very clear. The sealing was the result of believing, and that was the result of hearing the gospel. The action of believing and sealing by the Spirit, happen simultaneously. Which is, “you heard…you believed…and then you were sealed.”. No time lapse in the Greek! The repentant, believing sinner becomes a child of God, when they are “regenerated” and “washed” and “renewed” by God the Holy Spirit. If this is not right, then please feel free to correct my understanding of the Greek.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what do you make of 2 Cor 7:10? "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, a repentance not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world finally produces death" (Weymouth)
vs3-14 is one sentence in the greek...mr.greek wizard. It is the second longest sentence in the greek nt, following Col.1:9-20.....which is the longest..
So spare us your "in the greek" routine.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
so, you are saying, that from verses 3 to 14 in the Greek, it is only the one "sentence"? Really? Do you know what a "sentence" is? I have the Greek manuscripts that have Ephesians, and I cannot see how all of these verses are "sentence"! Show me from the Greek then
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
vs3-14 is one sentence in the greek...mr.greek wizard. It is the second longest sentence in the greek nt, following Col.1:9-20.....which is the longest..
So spare us your "in the greek" routine.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before [him, in love 5 having predestined] us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the [Beloved, 7 in whom] we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 ;making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth, 11 [in whom] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his [glory, 13 in whom] you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
So say some! But this is not correct.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
vs3-14 is one sentence in the greek...mr.greek wizard. It is the second longest sentence in the greek nt, following Col.1:9-20.....which is the longest..
So spare us your "in the greek" routine.
"Steven Baugh, author of the EEC volume on Ephesians, takes issue with the claim that the beginning of Ephesians is “a long sentence of 202 words”
Paul’s “Longest” Sentence (Eph 1.3-14)
Did you read the passage and the bold statement in the passage? If you can read it, yet not see your error, then I can only pray for you to someday comprehend what God is telling you.
sbg, you are wrong. Read the entire passage in Titus (especially the passage I made bold).
sbg, do you not care about context? Do you just make up an interpretation based upon a preconception you demand?
Revelation 1:1-6
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
The passage does not say what you have claimed. The text does not support your interpretation.
What this proves is that the title of this topic is laughable. You have multiple people showing you your interpretive error, yet you utterly refuse to acknowledge they are biblical rebuttals.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Yeah the multiple people you refer to are the so called reformed, who object to the OP because it challenges their theology rather than what the Bible actually says. Like some who question my knowledge of the Greek language supposing to undermine what I say. But they actually show their own lack of knowledge of biblical Greek themselves.
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