Biblical vs Reformed Salvation

[AustinC]

No, hearing comes from the word of God.

Correct, hearing comes from being made alive with Christ.

that is what I have said! the Gospel Message preached from the Bible!

No, that is not what you have said. You have said that dead people must repent before they can hear the gospel message, that a person is saved by grace through faith.
You struggle very much with God's covenants and thus fail to grasp the Abrahamic and Sinai/Mosaic covenant and what Jesus was saying to the people of Israel when he called them to repentance.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Jesus was saying to the people of Israel when he called them to repentance

so the call to repentance for slavation is different with the Jews and Gentiles? you guys make it up as you go along to fit your warped theology! Look again at Acts chapter 2, verses 1-39, and see how sinners are really saved according to the Bible, as I have shown in the OP!

 

[Reformed1689]

the sinner has the ability given by God to "hear" the Gospel, or not to

Close. Nobody has the ears to hear unless given by God. Welcome to the Reformed camp.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Close. Nobody has the ears to hear unless given by God. Welcome to the Reformed camp.

that is why I called this Biblical vs Reformed, because what the Bible teaches, is not what the Reformed teach!

Take a look at John 5:24-25,

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

Jesus says "I say to you", who is this then? wind back to verse 18, it is the Jews that wanted to murder Jesus. In verse 19, we read, "Then Jesus answered and said to THEM", which all the words that follow, to verse 47, are ALL addressed to these same Jews! To them Jesus says "I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.". It is to these same Jews that Jesus says, "but I say these things that you may be saved" (34). And again, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (39-40). There you have it, IF you can accept what Jesus tells these murdering Jews, that He wanted them to be saved, but they refused this! Let the Bible do the talking and you the listening! you might learn a thing or two!

 

[Iconoclast]

"Steven Baugh, author of the EEC volume on Ephesians, takes issue with the claim that the beginning of Ephesians is “a long sentence of 202 words”

Paul’s “Longest” Sentence (Eph 1.3-14)

208 words

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeah the multiple people you refer to are the so called reformed, who object to the OP because it challenges their theology rather than what the Bible actually says. Like some who question my knowledge of the Greek language supposing to undermine what I say. But they actually show their own lack of knowledge of biblical Greek themselves.

Archangel exposed. You weeks ago.Do we have to go back there?

 

[SavedByGrace]

208 words

whatever. As Steven Baugh has shown, and I have found from my own studies, this notion that verses 3-14 are one sentence in the original Greek, is wrong! there you have it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Archangel exposed. You weeks ago.Do we have to go back there?

yes, lets see it! Can you yourself refute what I have shown from Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:1-5 and Titus 2:5, to be wrong from the Greek?

 

[Iconoclast]

yes, lets see it! Can you yourself refute what I have shown from Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:1-5 and Titus 2:5, to be wrong from the Greek?

I can...but like many others have discovered you are not really looking for an answer, you are just being contentious.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I can...but like many others have discovered you are not really looking for an answer, you are just being contentious.

it makes no difference! the facts remain as said in OP, which no one has managed to refute. you tried with some lame argument from the Greek, really to try to show that I did not know any, and since then have proven you wrong again. I notice on BB that the "reformed" are more interested in their pet theology, than what the Holy Bible actually says, and when they cannot disprove what is said, they go on personal attacks! I can bear this well, as I know what the truth it. have a great day!

 

[AustinC]

so the call to repentance for slavation is different with the Jews and Gentiles? you guys make it up as you go along to fit your warped theology! Look again at Acts chapter 2, verses 1-39, and see how sinners are really saved according to the Bible, as I have shown in the OP!

Nope. You really struggle with this. The Sinai/Mosaic covenant is for Israel, thus the repentance of Israel falls within the Sinai/Mosaic covenant while the promise of salvation falls in a greater covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, which envelopes all people's. If you could stop reading the Bible with a massive immovable pretext, you would see this biblical truth expressed throughout scripture.
Alas, I don't expect you have had your mind opened to this truth so I accept you have an interpretive error. My only purpose in posting here is to point out that Reformed soteriology is very much biblical. Therefore, the title of this thread is utterly wrong and it has been proven wrong by multiple posters.
One day...your BB name will actually be your theology. Until then you will keep struggling and fighting against the bit.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Reformed soteriology is very much biblical

yeah, like John 3:16 is only speaking about the elect!

 

[Reformed1689]

that is why I called this Biblical vs Reformed, because what the Bible teaches, is not what the Reformed teach!

Take a look at John 5:24-25,

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

Jesus says "I say to you", who is this then? wind back to verse 18, it is the Jews that wanted to murder Jesus. In verse 19, we read, "Then Jesus answered and said to THEM", which all the words that follow, to verse 47, are ALL addressed to these same Jews! To them Jesus says "I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.". It is to these same Jews that Jesus says, "but I say these things that you may be saved" (34). And again, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (39-40). There you have it, IF you can accept what Jesus tells these murdering Jews, that He wanted them to be saved, but they refused this! Let the Bible do the talking and you the listening! you might learn a thing or two!

Verses out of context mean nothing. Yes, he who hears the word, but Paul also says someone has to have ears to hear. Not everyone has this. That's not just something given to every person. John also says nobody comes to the son unless he is drawn (literally dragged) by the Father.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Verses out of context mean nothing. Yes, he who hears the word, but Paul also says someone has to have ears to hear. Not everyone has this. That's not just something given to every person. John also says nobody comes to the son unless he is drawn (literally dragged) by the Father.

so why would Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, say all of this from John 5:17-42, to these Jews who wanted to murder Him, if He did not mean it? Like, "but I say these things that you may be saved" (34). Here is Jesus saying that all of which He was telling these murdering Jews, was indeed for their salvation! Again, note that all of this was only to these Jews, and not to any of His Disciples. Just answer this from the context, and don't try to dismiss it with other Scriptures.

 

[Reformed1689]

so why would Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, say all of this from John 5:17-42, to these Jews who wanted to murder Him, if He did not mean it? Like, "but I say these things that you may be saved" (34). Here is Jesus saying that all of which He was telling these murdering Jews, was indeed for their salvation! Again, note that all of this was only to these Jews, and not to any of His Disciples. Just answer this from the context, and don't try to dismiss it with other Scriptures.

I'm sorry, can you simply state what you are trying to argue? I don't see how that passage is in any disagreement with what I stated.

 

[Dave G]

salvation IS being born again! since when did this change in the Bible?

It never changed.
Salvation, God's decision to save a people for Himself, was made before the word began...
When they were written in the Book of Life ( Revelation 17:8 ):

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

According to this, there is a group whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, and there is a group whose names were.
In addition, since the Ephesians believers were told, just 1 chapter back in Ephesians 1:4-5, that not only were they chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, they were predestinated to their adoption as children.

Therefore, God's decision to save them occurred, just as Paul told them, before He created any of us.
Once again, Romans 9:14-24 comes into play...
Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, and vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory.

Back in Romans 8:29-30, I clearly see that only those that were foreknown, enjoy any of the rest of the benefits of being made alive...
Benefits such as being predestinated conformed to the image of Christ, being called by the Gospel, being justified by His blood and being glorified with a new body.

No one outside of being foreknown has any right or privilege to any of the rest.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm sorry, can you simply state what you are trying to argue? I don't see how that passage is in any disagreement with what I stated.

sure. According to Reformed theology, Jesus only came for the elect and their salvation. However, here in John 5, and elsewhere, we have Jesus Himself saying that He also desired that these Jews who wanted to murder Him, themselves to be saved. Jesus would not have said any of this, if Reformed theology is right.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Once again, Romans 9:14-24 comes into play...
Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, and vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory.

but what of verse 22, " What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction". Why does it say that God "endures with much longsuffering" with those who are "fitted to destruction"? Is it because God is not willing that any of these perish?

 

[Dave G]

Continued from earlier:

Here Paul tells us that the sinner is “made alive” in Jesus, at the same time that they are forgiven ALL of their sins (πάντα τὰ παραπτώματα). And not before as taught by some. There is no sequence of events in the Greek. It is very clear from this, that both passages, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, teach that the sinner is “made alive” on having their sins forgiven, not before of after!

Here I see Paul telling them, in both passages ( specifically Ephesians 2:4-6 and Colossians 2:10-15 ), that "positionally" they were in Christ when all of these things were done for them.
In other words, when He went to the cross, His sheep were in His mind and were "at the cross and on it", with Him.

When He took on our sins, it was a personal thing and each and every person He went to that cross to die for, was "with Him".
When He suffered for us, we suffered with Him...
When He was made alive by God, we were made alive with Him.
When He was raised again, we were raised with Him.
When He was seated in the Heavenlies, so were we.

All of this is a picture of what will happen, in real time, for the believer.
They will be born again, they will suffer persecution and tribulation for His sake, and they will die and be raised again.

....At least most of them will die;
A few will be translated as Enoch and Elijah were, when the Lord comes again ( 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ), while the rest are already with Him in spirit, and their bodies will be raised again at His coming.

As for being forgiven of sins, I see that as having happened at the cross ( Romans 5:8-11, Colossians 2:13-14 ), not when the the person believed the Gospel.

That Gospel message is one of reconciliation for God's children...
A completed work on their behalf that was accomplished for them and for them only.

It is not, nor ever was, one of "potential reconciliation" for all of mankind.

 

[George Antonios]

Romans 3:11

Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hos 5:6 They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them.

Hos 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Etc.