Biblical vs Reformed Salvation

[SavedByGrace]

As for being forgiven of sins, I see that as having happened at the cross ( Romans 5:8-11, Colossians 2:13-14 ), not when the the person believed the Gospel.

so repentance of sins for forgiveness and salvation is not a requirement?

 

[Reformed1689]

sure. According to Reformed theology, Jesus only came for the elect and their salvation. However, here in John 5, and elsewhere, we have Jesus Himself saying that He also desired that these Jews who wanted to murder Him, themselves to be saved. Jesus would not have said any of this, if Reformed theology is right.

Where do you see that in that passage?

 

[atpollard]

Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hos 5:6 They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them.

Hos 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Etc.

Ooh ... scripture pong.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Where do you see that in that passage?

Huh? in verse 34 Jesus tells these Jews, "but I say these things so that you may be saved". And again, 39-40, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.". These Jews were the ones that refused to come to Jesus that they may have eternal life, not that Jesus did not want them saved!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ooh ... scripture pong.

don't like Scripture truth?

 

[Dave G]

The clearest teaching in the New Testament on the “order of salvation” of the lost sinner, is found in Acts chapter 2.

I disagree.
To me, the clearest order of salvation is found in Romans 8:29-30.

In his sermon, Peter quotes extensively from the Prophet Joel, where we read, “and it shall be, everyone whoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved” (v.21, literal Greek)

I agree, and I see this as a true statement," whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
But when the Bible is examined more closely, I find that there are other "qualifiers" that Scripture includes as to who will call upon Him:

1) Only those who call upon Him in truth ( Psalms 145:18 ).
2) Only those who call upon Him out of a pure heart ( 2 Timothy 2:22 ).

Therefore, as I see it, a person does not call upon the Lord to "get saved", but because they are saved and are already born again.
In other words, their heart has been changed, their willful rejection of God's words has been taken away, and they now respond to God willingly in the other direction;
Instead of automatically rejecting Him and His ways, they now embrace His words and ways, despite their stumbling around in the flesh, which weighs them down like a stone.

A stone that only the power of the Holy Spirit can lift for them.

It is clear that those who heard this Gospel Message, and were convicted by God the Holy Spirit, were to “invoke”, the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

I agree, except I don't see God waiting for them to invoke Christ's name in order to save them, but because He was already working a work in their hearts.

After Peter had finished this message, those who were present, we are told, “were cut to the heart (κατενυγησαν την καρδιαν)” (verse 37), that is, their hearts were “pierced, stung sharply”, by the convicting of the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of Peter.

Again I agree.

Here I clearly see that like Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), these people's hearts were opened so that they then believed what was being preached, and that belief of the words then caused them to see their plight and they repented and were baptized.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Romans 3:11

Jeremiah 29:13, "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart."

Deuteronomy 4:29, " But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul."

Proverbs 8:17, "I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me."

Acts 8:27, "God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."

Are all of these verses of no value?

 

[SavedByGrace]

In other words, their heart has been changed, their willful rejection of God's words has been taken away, and they now respond to God willnigly the other direction;
Instead of automatically rejecting Him and His ways, they now embrace His words and ways, despite their stumbling around in the flesh, which weighs them down like a stone.

for starters, you believe in the "free will" in all humans? Otherwise your reasoning here is moot!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I disagree.
To me, the clearest order of salvation is found in Romans 8:29-30.

but you cannot disagree that in Acts 2 there is an "order" for salvation, as it is all there! Show me where it does not teach this?

 

[Dave G]

It is very clear from what the Bible teaches, that a sinner is only saved after they “repent and believe”, and they are not “made alive” prior to calling on the Lord for salvation, as Reformed theology wrongly teaches!

I disagree.
To me, it is very clear from many passages, and some out-right blatant statements in Scripture, that the sinner that is saved before they repent and believe.
Here is a partial list:

Psalms 65:4.
John 3:36.
John 5:24.
John 6:39.
John 6:65.
John 17:2.
Acts of the Apostles 2:39.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:29-30.
Romans 9:6-24.
Romans 10:16-20.
Romans 11:5-8.
1 Corinthians 1:18.
Ephesians 1:4-6.
Ephesians 2:10.
Philippians 1:29.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
Revelation 17:8.

May God bless you greatly as you consider what I have presented.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I disagree.
To me, it is very clear from many passages, and some out-right blatant statements in Scripture, that the sinner that is saved before they repent and believe.
Here is a partial list:

Psalms 65:4.
John 3:36.
John 5:24.
John 6:39.
John 6:65.
John 17:2.
Acts of the Apostles 2:39.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:29-30.
Romans 9:6-24.
Romans 10:16-20.
Romans 11:5-8.
1 Corinthians 1:18.
Ephesians 1:4-6.
Ephesians 2:10.
Philippians 1:29.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
Revelation 17:8.

May God bless you greatly as you consider what I have presented.

I greatly worry for you and your theology, because you are trying to force the Word of God to agree with your theology! NO sinner can be saved before they repent, Jesus is very clear on this, "unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5). In other words, if these repent, then they will be saved, if not, then they will be lost. very clear to me!

 

[George Antonios]

To me, the clearest order of salvation is found in Romans 8:29-30.

Tranlsation: "The Bible passage which, by virtue of its correlative language to Calvinistic philosophy, most fortuitously lends itself to being molded into the Calvinistic mold, is Romans 8:29-30".

 

[Reformed1689]

Huh? in verse 34 Jesus tells these Jews, "but I say these things so that you may be saved". And again, 39-40, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.". These Jews were the ones that refused to come to Jesus that they may have eternal life, not that Jesus did not want them saved!

It does not say that God chose them to be saved. The whole passage is talking about how they reject the truth.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It does not say that God chose them to be saved. The whole passage is talking about how they reject the truth.

What does Jesus mean by His words in verse 34

 

[atpollard]

don't like Scripture truth?

No, I LOVE the truth found in scripture. I have just seldom observed an exchange of single verses ripped from their context leading to TRUTH. So this game of Scripture pong is unlikely to yield “Scripture truth”.

 

[atpollard]

Tranlsation: "The Bible passage which, by virtue of its correlative language to Calvinistic philosophy, most fortuitously lends itself to being molded into the Calvinistic mold, is Romans 8:29-30".

Technically, DaveG is not a Calvinist. He just agrees with the conclusions of TULIP for personal reasons based on his own bible study without any outside Reformed influences.

 

[George Antonios]

Technically, DaveG is not a Calvinist. He just agrees with the conclusions of TULIP for personal reasons based on his own bible study without any outside Reformed influences.

Technically, I'm not a non-Calvinist, I just disagree with the conclusions of TULIP for personal reasons based on my own Bible study without any outside non-reformed influences

 

[atpollard]

Technically, I'm not a non-Calvinist, I just disagree with the conclusions of TULIP for personal reasons based on my own Bible study without any outside non-reformed influences

The difference being that nobody translated your post by claiming it was a Calvinist (or Arminian) manifesto.

 

[George Antonios]

the sinner that is saved before they repent and believe.

Just look at those words again, slowly. A literal reversing of Bible truth - and spoken with all the gravity of a great-horned owl.

 

[Dave G]

what do you make of 2 Cor 7:10? "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, a repentance not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world finally produces death" (Weymouth)

Godly sorrow from a changed heart, does indeed produce repentance.
Here it is, as I see it, in context:
Remember verse 1 of chapter 7?

" Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." ( 2 Corinthians 7:1 ).

Here I see Paul speaking to the believers at Corinth.
Clarified, that means he was writing to believers who had already experienced the new birth.
Skipping down:

" For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though [it] were but for a season.
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
12 Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, [I did it] not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you. " ( 2 Corinthians 7:8-12 ).

Remember that letter he wrote to them before ( 1 Corinthians ), when he rebuked the man for having his father's wife, rebuked them for being drunk, rebuked them for fornication and for infighting?
In this one, he commends them for taking correction and for exhibiting godly sorrow...
The kind of godly sorrow that comes from a changed heart.

In verse 10 I see that godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of...
In other words, godly sorrow is the fruit of salvation.
He also tells them that the sorrow of the world ( I take this to mean being sorry, not that we offended Him, but that we were caught sinning ) works death.

But I could be wrong on that last.