Biblical vs Reformed Salvation

[SavedByGrace]

No, what is clear is that you are taking things out of context. And it says may be, not will be. And you are reading things into the passage that simply are not there.

You are reasoning from the English, the Greek is different. Look at John 3:16, " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (KJV). Why not "will not"? Does this mean that even after a sinner were to "believe" in the Lord Jesus Christ, that their salvation is still not "certain"?

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, what is clear is that you are taking things out of context. And it says may be, not will be. And you are reading things into the passage that simply are not there.

Like in John 3:16, in 5:34, it means that not everyone who hears the Gospel Message WILL be saved, as there are those who WILL hear and WILL be lost, because they WILL not repent and believe. In both places in the Greek, the subjunctive is used, which means there is some "doubt".

 

[AustinC]

I think that you need to let the Holy Bible teach you, and not some theological nut! You cannot respond to the OP because you know that it is right!

sbg, you are standing alone on a hill that no one else is climbing. Will you be so prideful as to tell everyone else that the Holy Spirit is not teaching them?
Second, I have directly addressed the OP on multiple occasions. The OP refuses any observation of the Bible that doesn't fully agree with his absolute requirement that God cannot save until a human first willfully repents on their own before the Holy Spirit quickens them.
The fact is, the OP has zero grasp of God's covenants, which are essential to understanding Jesus words to Israel.

 

[SavedByGrace]

before the Holy Spirit quickens them

Just ONE Scripture that teaches this?

 

[Dave G]

Do you know this for a fact, that he does not have any Reformed books on theology, or reads them online, or attends a Church that is "Reformed"?

Speaking for myself, as @atpollard may not have read all of my posts about it,
I do not get my understanding from Reformed theology, I get it strictly from my own studies of the Bible.

I believed on Christ during the preaching of God's word in 1978 in an Independent Baptist church in my area, during a revival meeting given by Dr. Carl Hatch.
I grew up in that church from 1978 until I quietly left it in 2005 ( because of their increasing use of Bible translations I didn't like, lack of church discipline, especially regarding women and the way they dressed, and young people and what they were involved in...and the world's music and the worlds ways ( "worship bands", "movies", "church growth methods", etc. )) to join another Independent, Fundamental Baptist church that was much more conservative.

I left that one a year later after having a long talk in the pastor's office with him over Romans 9 and realizing that we did not agree on what it said.

I didn't even know about election, "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism" or any of that until 2003, when a friend of mine asked me to read 3 passages on my own time ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) and when I finally did about 3 days later, it made me sit down in shock;
I'd never seen them before, not in 25 years of sitting through sermons in any Baptist church I visited or was a member of, nor in the Christian school I attended for over 2 years when I was in junior high and high school.

The more I dug into the Bible for myself, the more I found verses ( and even whole chapters ) that no one had ever shown me, much less preached on.
Suffice to say, I know of no Independent Baptist church ( or any church for that matter ) in my area that preaches or teaches the entire counsel of God's word, and there are some 50-60 Baptist churches of varying teachings and practice within 40 miles of me...2 within 3 miles of my house and over 10 within 7 miles of my house.

I have read parts of "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink because I own it on Kindle for PC, I have a Kindle copy of "The Obedience of a Christian Man" by William Tyndale, and I have a few copies of others that I picked up for reference purposes...
If anything, to see if the men who wrote them were seeing the same things that I saw in the Bible.

I have read, and occasionally do still read, articles online ( to see how they compare to my own private studies ) and I have only visited a Sovereign Grace Baptist church once in my lifetime;
I decided not to join because they wanted to re-baptize me to "identify with their teachings", which I also thought was strange, because I was baptized in 1978 to identify with my Saviour and His words...
Not a denomination's teachings.


I hope that helps to answer some of what you were asking.
If you'd like to know more, please don't hesitate to start a conversation with me;

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.

 

[Dave G]

Likewise, as in the passage from Acts 2 I have used in the OP, after Peter had preched his message, those who head him were, "cut to the heart" (37), which no doubt is the conviction of the Holy Spirit. How did they respond? They asked, "what shall we DO?". Peter did not say, "do nothing", but instead told them that they must "repent...for the remission of sins" (38), and then they would receive the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" (38), and get themselves saved. Which is what Peter again says in the next chapter, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." (3:19)

I agree with the highlighted and doubly so with the underlined.

But have you ever asked yourself, "why were they cut to the heart?"
Why did the word of God touch them the way that it did and not others?

Why did, for example, most of those on Mars Hill ( Acts of the Apostles 17:22-34 ) either mock Paul or ask to hear about the resurrection of the dead again...
Instead of believing like the very few that afterwards, followed Paul?

What was behind their response and made the difference between why some responded favorably, and why others did not?
Free will?
No my friend...it was God's will:

Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:29-30.
Ephesians 1:4-5.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
Ephesians 2:10.
John 6:37-47.
John 6:64-65.
John 8:43-47.
John 10:26-27.
John 17:2.
Romans 9:13-24.
Psalms 65:4.

SBG, the Bible does indeed contain those answers...that is where I get them.
Not from theology books, but from the words on the pages of Scripture itself.

 

[AustinC]

Just ONE Scripture that teaches this?

We have shared Ephesians 2:1-10 on multiple occasions, yet you reject it. Why do you openly reject it?

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

There is your passage, which shows you your error. Stop being so very prideful.

Others have shared many scriptures with you. These are God's word. They are not from some imaginable Reformed pamphlet which you add as an excuse to refuse what God tells you.
sbg, you are acting in open pride while rejecting all scripture that proves your proposition to be wrong. No one can move you from your false proposition, even though volumes of Bible passages be provided to show your error.
There is nothing more to be said. I will endeavour to no longer address this issue with you. You have an obstacle before you that only God can remove from you.

Peace

 

[SavedByGrace]

Speaking for myself, as @atpollard may not have read all of my posts about it,
I do not get my understanding from Reformed theology, I get it strictly from my own studies of the Bible.

I believed on Christ during the preaching of God's word in 1978 in an Independent Baptist church in my area, during a revival meeting given by Dr. Carl Hatch.
I grew up in that church from 1978 until I quietly left it in 2005 ( because of their increasing use of Bible translations I didn't like, lack of church discipline, especially regarding women and the way they dressed, and young people and what they were involved in...and the world's music and the worlds ways ( "worship bands", "movies", "church growth methods", etc. )) to join another Independent, Fundamental Baptist church that was much more conservative.

I left that one a year later after having a long talk in the pastor's office ( what's a "pastor's office"? Can't find that one in the Bible...lol. ) over Romans 9... which he didn't seem to understand and which I thought was very odd, considering he was, at the time, 30 years my senior in age, and at least 10 years senior to me in the Lord.

I didn't even know about election, "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism" or any of that until 2003, when a friend of mine asked me to read 3 passages on my own time ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) and when I finally did about 3 days later, it made me sit down in shock;
I'd never seen them before, not in 25 years of sitting through sermons in any Baptist church I visited or was a member of, nor in the Christian school I attended for over 2 years when I was in junior high and high school.

The more I dug into the Bible for myself, the more I found verses ( and even whole chapters ) that no one had ever shown me, much less preached on.
Suffice to say, I know of no Independent Baptist church ( or any church for that matter ) in my area that preaches or teaches the entire counsel of God's word, and there are some 50-60 Baptist churches of varying teachings and practice within 40 miles of me...2 within 3 miles of my house and over 10 within 7 miles of my house.

I have read parts of "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink because I own it on Kindle for PC, I have a Kindle copy of "The Obedience of a Christian Man" by William Tyndale, and I have a few copies of others that I picked up for reference purposes...
If anything, to see if the men who wrote them were seeing the same things that I saw in the Bible.

I have read, and occasionally do still read, articles online ( to see how they compare to my own private studies ) and I have only visited a Sovereign Grace Baptist church once in my lifetime;
I decided not to join because they wanted to re-baptize me to "identify with their teachings", which I also thought was strange, because I was baptized in 1978 to identify with my Saviour and His words...
Not a denomination's teachings.


I hope that helps to answer some of what you were asking.
If you'd like to know more, please don't hesitate to start a conversation with me;

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify things. I note that you have partly read Pink's book on The Sovereignity of God, which is probably the US edition? Pink, as far as I am aware, was a hyper-Calvinist. Are you saying that this book did not have any influence on your theology? the British reformed publishers, Banner of Truth published this book by Pink, but modified its contents, “The Sovereignty of God” by A.W. Pink – Why Two Editions and Are They Really That Different?

 

[Dave G]

I note that you have partly read Pink's book on The Sovereignity of God, which is probably the US edition?

No, it is the 3rd edition and unedited for content.

Pink, as far as I am aware, was a hyper-Calvinist.

I don't know what a "hyper"-Calvinist is, unless you're referring to someone who believes that everything that man does is directly orchestrated by God, which I do not agree with.
For example, that would mean that sin is caused by God acting on a man...

When I see that we do a good job of messing things up without His affecting anything.
It is my opinion that If He were to stand back, lift His hand and let us as men do everything we wanted to, this world would implode on itself within a matter of months.

Are you saying that this book did not have any influence on your theology?

None whatsoever.

the British reformed publishers, Banner of Truth published this book by Pink, but modified its contents, “The Sovereignty of God” by A.W. Pink – Why Two Editions and Are They Really That Different?

I don't have Banner's edition.

 

[SavedByGrace]

We have shared Ephesians 2:1-10 on multiple occasions, yet you reject it. Why do you openly reject it?

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

There is your passage, which shows you your error. Stop being so very prideful.

Others have shared many scriptures with you. These are God's word. They are not from some imaginable Reformed pamphlet which you add as an excuse to refuse what God tells you.
sbg, you are acting in open pride while rejecting all scripture that proves your proposition to be wrong. No one can move you from your false proposition, even though volumes of Bible passages be provided to show your error.
There is nothing more to be said. I will endeavour to no longer address this issue with you. You have an obstacle before you that only God can remove from you.

Peace

Interesting that you quote from the much misused passage in Ephesians 2, but completely ignored Colossians 2:13, which is in the OP! This verse is the same as Ephesians 2:5, and uses the same word "made alive together". I have also shown in the OP, that the Greek of Colossians 2:13, is very clear that this "making alive" is at the SAME TIME as "forgiveness" of sins. When means that sinners are made alive in Jesus when they are born-again! This is also confirmed by Ephesians 1:13, also in the OP, which you also ignore. And then you try to accuse me of pride! When looking at the Bible to teach us, we must look at the whole Bible, and not pick verses or passages that we agree with! This is my last exchange with you on this.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, it is the 3rd edition and unedited for content.

I don't know what a "hyper"-Calvinist is, unless you're referring to someone who believes that everything that man does is directly orchestrated by God, which I do not agree with.
For example, that would mean that sin is caused by God acting on a man...

When I see that we do a good job of messing things up without His affecting anything.
It is my opinion that If He were to stand back, lift His hand and let us as men do everything we wanted to, this world would implode on itself within a matter of months.

None whatsoever.

I don't have Banner's edition.

thanks again for your time. have a great day!

 

[Reformed1689]

You are reasoning from the English, the Greek is different. Look at John 3:16, " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (KJV). Why not "will not"? Does this mean that even after a sinner were to "believe" in the Lord Jesus Christ, that their salvation is still not "certain"?

This clearly shows you don't know the English usage of the word "should." It's not a perhaps, it is an absolute.

 

[Reformed1689]

There are some, like R C Sproul, that teach that a sinner does not require to "repent and believe in the Gospel", as Jesus teaches in Mark 1:15, so that they may be saved. They see "repentance" as a "work", which is complete rubbish, as it is the obeying of the just demand by God for all sinners, and not any "merit" involved by the sinner.

Show me one place where R.C. Sproul EVER taught that! That is a bold faced lie. You clearly do not know what you are talking about which is probably the root of your utter hatred of Calvinism. You are ignorant on the matter. You should take back most of the horrible things you have said about beliefs you clearly know nothing about.

 

[AustinC]

No repentance first in this passage before God makes people alive with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-15
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Show me one place where R.C. Sproul EVER taught that! That is a bold faced lie. You clearly do not know what you are talking about which is probably the root of your utter hatred of Calvinism. You are ignorant on the matter. You should take back most of the horrible things you have said about beliefs you clearly know nothing about.

you are right here. I had in mind Sproul's teaching that "regeneration precedes faith". Do you deny that Reformed do teach that only "faith" is required for conversion (salvation), and that repentance at this time is seen as a work? This has been on this board for the months that I have been here!

 

[SavedByGrace]

This clearly shows you don't know the English usage of the word "should." It's not a perhaps, it is an absolute.

now you are trying to get clever! Can you read English? I did say to you that the Greek is clearer, as it is in the conditional subjunctive mood! Now check and see what this means!

 

[Reformed1689]

you are right here. I had in mind Sproul's teaching that "regeneration precedes faith". Do you deny that Reformed do teach that only "faith" is required for conversion (salvation), and that repentance at this time is seen as a work? This has been on this board for the months that I have been here!

I am saying that you are trying to oversimplify the arguments to a caricature of what they really are. There are things that go hand in hand. In other words, what is true saving faith verses merely words? So do I believe in faith alone? Absolutely. But what does that actually mean? You hear that and say we mean no repentance. No, that is not what we mean. Faith, true faith, is accompanied by works (see the book of James) and that certainly includes repentance. Scripture is clear that repentance, initial and ongoing, is part of true faith that leads to salvation. The works are the evidence of the true saving faith.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Show me one place where R.C. Sproul EVER taught that! That is a bold faced lie. You clearly do not know what you are talking about which is probably the root of your utter hatred of Calvinism. You are ignorant on the matter. You should take back most of the horrible things you have said about beliefs you clearly know nothing about.

your answer is in #134!

 

[Reformed1689]

now you are trying to get clever! Can you read English? I did say to you that the Greek is clearer, as it is in the conditional subjunctive mood! Now check and see what this means!

My point is the verse literally means whoever believes WILL be saved. Not sure how to make that anymore plain.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am saying that you are trying to oversimplify the arguments to a caricature of what they really are. There are things that go hand in hand. In other words, what is true saving faith verses merely words? So do I believe in faith alone? Absolutely. But what does that actually mean? You hear that and say we mean no repentance. No, that is not what we mean. Faith, true faith, is accompanied by works (see the book of James) and that certainly includes repentance. Scripture is clear that repentance, initial and ongoing, is part of true faith that leads to salvation. The works are the evidence of the true saving faith.

Biblical repentance this that which leads to "forgiveness of sins" (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:39, 3:19). Without this NO sinner can ever get saved, born again! This IS what the Bible teaches, and not your mumbo jumbo!