Biblical vs Secular Definitions of English Words

[Derf B]

Could you point to an example that you have in mind?

Sure. Here’s a great example from GotQuestions.org:
Question: "How is physical death related to spiritual death?"

Answer: The Bible has a great deal to say about death and, more importantly, what happens after death. Physical death and spiritual death are both a separation of one thing from another. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

You might notice that animal death would not fit either of these definitions, even though animal death would normally (by any Christian, or non-Christian, for that matter) be considered an example of “physical death”.

Why the disconnect?

 

[atpollard]

Sure. Here’s a great example from GotQuestions.org:
Question: "How is physical death related to spiritual death?"

Answer: The Bible has a great deal to say about death and, more importantly, what happens after death. Physical death and spiritual death are both a separation of one thing from another. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

You might notice that animal death would not fit either of these definitions, even though animal death would normally (by any Christian, or non-Christian, for that matter) be considered an example of “physical death”.

Why the disconnect?

There is a program offered in Schools called "More Alike Than Different" that is designed to explain to teachers and students how Autistic children experience the world. That theme would seem to fit "physical" and "spiritual" death ... they are "more alike than different".

When Richard was murdered, he physically left us. His mother and brothers and wife and children and friends and coworkers all experienced physical separation from the person that he was. Photographs and videos and memories were all that was left of his humor and his warmth and his charm and his caring nature. That is the pain and loss of physical death as we human beings experience it (and our empirical experiences are the only metric that we have to base our judgements on).

Richard was clearly unsaved one year before his death (based on the evidence of how he lived his life), but was genuinely asking serious questions and seeking God answers in the 6 months prior to his death. I do not know which side of 'saved' he finished his race on. If Richard finished his race on the 'saved' side, then he is physically dead, but spiritually alive. In that case, I will see him again and we will be together again. If he finished his race on the 'unsaved' side of that line, then the separation of physical death is permanent. The photos and video will crumble to dust. The memories will fade into forgetfulness. Spiritual death is the same sort of separation as physical death.

Physical and Spiritual Death are "more alike than different".

 

[Derf B]

There is a program offered in Schools called "More Alike Than Different" that is designed to explain to teachers and students how Autistic children experience the world. That theme would seem to fit "physical" and "spiritual" death ... they are "more alike than different".

When Richard was murdered, he physically left us. His mother and brothers and wife and children and friends and coworkers all experienced physical separation from the person that he was. Photographs and videos and memories were all that was left of his humor and his warmth and his charm and his caring nature. That is the pain and loss of physical death as we human beings experience it (and our empirical experiences are the only metric that we have to base our judgements on).

Richard was clearly unsaved one year before his death (based on the evidence of how he lived his life), but was genuinely asking serious questions and seeking God answers in the 6 months prior to his death. I do not know which side of 'saved' he finished his race on. If Richard finished his race on the 'saved' side, then he is physically dead, but spiritually alive. In that case, I will see him again and we will be together again. If he finished his race on the 'unsaved' side of that line, then the separation of physical death is permanent. The photos and video will crumble to dust. The memories will fade into forgetfulness. Spiritual death is the same sort of separation as physical death.

Physical and Spiritual Death are "more alike than different".

I think you've adequately capture the essence of the GotQuestions definition of "death" (if Richard was friend of yours, my condolences).
There are a couple of questions that can follow.
1. Is the definition correct? and
2. Is it a problem holding to an incorrect definition of "death" (I'm not yet trying to say which is incorrect)?

Neither of us have addressed an example of "death" where it is just a cessation of all function in humans. Would you like to consider that definition? This kind of consideration helps (I think) in answering the second question.

I'll start. In the following passage, Paul is talking about those who have died, and he uses the word "sleep", similar to what Jesus said about Lazarus:

[1Th 4:13-18 KJV] 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

When Jesus used the word "sleep", his disciples were confused and thought He meant "not dead". Jesus went on to explain that Lazarus was really dead. Paul uses the word "sleep" in the same way, and he means "dead", so why does he do that?

One definition says that he's trying to say they are only partially dead--that their body is dead ("physical death"), but their spirit is alive and functioning in some other realm.
The other definition says that they are not currently functioning in some other realm, that all function has ceased, but that they will be resurrected prior to those that are alive being changed.

So far, I don't think either definition is harmful. But what about correctness?

Paul ends his discussion in an interesting way: "Comfort one another with these words." This tells me that this is fairly important to understand for those that have lost loved ones. Consider the normal response when someone has died. We often say, "He is in a far better place" as comfort. In your example, "Richard has left us." describes the separation being felt, but it also says that Richard is now in a different place. Obviously "Richard" is not just in a hole in the ground, but has left his body and his essence is somewhere else.

Paul's words of comfort are different. They say, "Your loved one will be resurrected!" You can have this hope (vs 13, above).

This is why I think the distinction is important. It puts the focus back on the resurrection of our bodies, which Jesus showed is important to Him, too, both in His own resurrection, and in His raising of Lazarus, where He said "[Jhn 11:25 KJV] 25 ...I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." Paul and Jesus were on the same page--death is not permanent. If someone is dead, and believeth in Jesus, he shall (future tense) live.

 

[Van]

According to YOU.
Not in a topic called:
Biblical vs Secular Definitions of English Words
Try talking about the topic (which is not ‘Calvinism’).

Liberals claim they are not liberals, and Calvinists claim Calvinist dogma is not Calvinism.
The word translated "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:23, is used metaphorically to mean attract, not compel.

Another bogus ploy by the defenders of falsehood is to claim the truth only reflects the view of the poster. Thus I am the only person who knows what the dictionaries and lexicons say, and all those holding the same view are ignored.

 

[atpollard]

The word translated "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:23, is used metaphorically to mean attract, not compel.

Since this must be yet another debate on the Doctrines of Grace (at YOUR insistence) ...

[John 6:43-44 NASB] Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

"Stop your grumbling" and "No one can" does not fit within the spirit of God making a friendly, universal invitation to all mankind (which is what you insist this verse means).

Here are all of the other verses that use the same Greek word (draw) so we can see all of the other "metaphorical attractions" it is used to represent:

• [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [John 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all men to Myself."
• [John 18:10 NASB] 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew[G1670] it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
• [John 21:6, 11 NASB] 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find [a catch.]" So they cast, and then they were not able to haul[G1670] it in because of the great number of fish. ... 11 Simon Peter went up and drew[G1670] the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
• [Acts 16:19 NASB] 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged[G1670] them into the market place before the authorities,
• [Acts 21:30 NASB] 30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged[G1670] him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
• [James 2:6 NASB] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag[G1670] you into court?

So in addition to God "metaphorically attracting" those who should stop grumbling, we have Christ "metaphorically attracting" all men without exception (john 12:32) and raising every one of them on the last day (John 6:44) ... PTL: UNIVERSALISM!
We also have Simon Peter "metaphorically attracting" his sword to cut off an ear, "metaphorically attracting" fish into the boat with a large net, crowds "metaphorically attracting" Paul and Silas into court and "metaphorically attracting" Paul out of the temple, and last of all we have a reference from James to the "metaphorical attraction" by the wealthy of the poor into court to oppress them.

I don't know ... scripture seems a lot less "metaphorical" to me and a lot more forceful in its DRAWING/HAULING/DRAGGING [G1670].

PS: John 12:23 should be John 12:32 in your post.

Let's look at God's track record for "attracting".
Did Abram seek God or did God call out Abram?
Did Moses seek God or did God choose Moses?
Did David seek God or did God choose David?
Did Samuel choose God or did God choose Samuel?
Did Peter seek Jesus or did Jesus choose Peter?
Did Saul/Paul choose Jesus or did Jesus choose Paul?

Are we starting to see any patterns yet?

Does this verse have any meaning at all?

• [Romans 9:18 NASB] 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

 

[Van]

Since this must be yet another debate on the Doctrines of Grace (at YOUR insistence) ... SNIP

Did you see any rebuttal? Neither did I. Did you see deflection, i.e. draw can mean draw a sword or a bucket of water. Is that in dispute? Nope.

On and on they post nonsense to hide truth.
The word translated "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:32, is used metaphorically to mean attract, not compel.

Everyone attracted to Christ does not put their faith fully in Christ, see soils #2 and 3 of Matthew 13.
All people who "behold" Christ high and lifted up (dying for them on the cross) do not put their faith fully in Christ, otherwise it would not be true that few find the narrow path that leads to life.

The obvious truth is draw, as used in John 6:44 and John 12:32 does not mean compel.

 

[atpollard]

Did you see any rebuttal? Neither did I.

Well if you ignore everything that I post and declare yourself the "winner", that must mean that you are right ... right?

 

[atpollard]

The word translated "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:32, is used metaphorically to mean attract, not compel.

No, it is not.
Thank you for playing ESIGESIS.
Please try again later.

 

[Van]

Well if you ignore everything that I post and declare yourself the "winner", that must mean that you are right ... right?

Once again a Calvinist addresses my behavior and studiously avoids the obvious meaning of "draw" at John 6:44 and John 12:32.

The word translated "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:32, is used metaphorically to mean attract, not compel.

Everyone attracted to Christ does not put their faith fully in Christ, see soils #2 and 3 of Matthew 13.
All people who "behold" Christ high and lifted up (dying for them on the cross) do not put their faith fully in Christ, otherwise it would not be true that few find the narrow path that leads to life.

 

[atpollard]

The obvious truth is draw, as used in John 6:44 and John 12:32 does mean compel.

[Fixed that for you.]

 

[Van]

[Fixed that for you.]

Note the pathetic effort to change the subject by deliberately misrepresenting my view.
This is all they have, folks.

The word translated "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:32, is used metaphorically to mean attract, not compel.

Everyone attracted to Christ does not put their faith fully in Christ, see soils #2 and 3 of Matthew 13.
All people who "behold" Christ high and lifted up (dying for them on the cross) do not put their faith fully in Christ, otherwise it would not be true that few find the narrow path that leads to life.

 

[atpollard]

Everyone attracted to Christ does not put their faith fully in Christ

No, but Everyone DRAWN by the Father is raised by the Son ... John 6:44

[John 6:44-45 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

 

[atpollard]

This is all they have, folks.

Except for everything that you ignored and refused to address:

Since this must be yet another debate on the Doctrines of Grace (at YOUR insistence) ...

[John 6:43-44 NASB] Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

"Stop your grumbling" and "No one can" does not fit within the spirit of God making a friendly, universal invitation to all mankind (which is what you insist this verse means).

Here are all of the other verses that use the same Greek word (draw) so we can see all of the other "metaphorical attractions" it is used to represent:

• [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [John 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all men to Myself."
• [John 18:10 NASB] 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew[G1670] it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
• [John 21:6, 11 NASB] 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find [a catch.]" So they cast, and then they were not able to haul[G1670] it in because of the great number of fish. ... 11 Simon Peter went up and drew[G1670] the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
• [Acts 16:19 NASB] 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged[G1670] them into the market place before the authorities,
• [Acts 21:30 NASB] 30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged[G1670] him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
• [James 2:6 NASB] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag[G1670] you into court?

So in addition to God "metaphorically attracting" those who should stop grumbling, we have Christ "metaphorically attracting" all men without exception (john 12:32) and raising every one of them on the last day (John 6:44) ... PTL: UNIVERSALISM!
We also have Simon Peter "metaphorically attracting" his sword to cut off an ear, "metaphorically attracting" fish into the boat with a large net, crowds "metaphorically attracting" Paul and Silas into court and "metaphorically attracting" Paul out of the temple, and last of all we have a reference from James to the "metaphorical attraction" by the wealthy of the poor into court to oppress them.

I don't know ... scripture seems a lot less "metaphorical" to me and a lot more forceful in its DRAWING/HAULING/DRAGGING [G1670].

PS: John 12:23 should be John 12:32 in your post.

Let's look at God's track record for "attracting".
Did Abram seek God or did God call out Abram?
Did Moses seek God or did God choose Moses?
Did David seek God or did God choose David?
Did Samuel choose God or did God choose Samuel?
Did Peter seek Jesus or did Jesus choose Peter?
Did Saul/Paul choose Jesus or did Jesus choose Paul?

Are we starting to see any patterns yet?

Does this verse have any meaning at all?

• [Romans 9:18 NASB] 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Why don't you address it now?

 

[Van]

No, but Everyone DRAWN by the Father is raised by the Son ... John 6:44

[John 6:44-45 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

On and on folks, falsehood after falsehood. No verses says or suggests everyone drawn (attracted) by the Father is raised up.
Who are raised up? The ones that "come to Me." Calvinists have been misrepresenting this verse for years. Everyone that comes has (1) been attracted with the call of the gospel, and (2) have learned (trusted fully in Christ) from the Father.

 

[Van]

On and on folks, falsehood after falsehood. No verses says or suggests everyone drawn (attracted) by the Father is raised up.
Who are raised up? The ones that "come to Me." Calvinists have been misrepresenting this verse for years. Everyone that comes has (1) been attracted with the call of the gospel, and (2) have learned (trusted fully in Christ) from the Father.

By the numbers
1) Draw means to attract and that attraction can be rejected as used in John 6:44 and John 12:32.
2) Everyone placed in Christ has been drawn and has "learned" such that they fully trust in Christ.

These truths are self evident.

 

[atpollard]

On and on folks, falsehood after falsehood. No verses says or suggests everyone drawn (attracted) by the Father is raised up.
Who are raised up? The ones that "come to Me." Calvinists have been misrepresenting this verse for years. Everyone that comes has (1) been attracted with the call of the gospel, and (2) have learned (trusted fully in Christ) from the Father.

[John 10:24-30 NASB] 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

 

[Van]

[John 10:24-30 NASB] 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Next we get the change the subject posts. On and on folks, on and on.
No verses says or suggests everyone drawn (attracted) by the Father is raised up.
Who are raised up? The ones that "come to Me." Calvinists have been misrepresenting this verse for years. Everyone that comes has (1) been attracted with the call of the gospel, and (2) have learned (trusted fully in Christ) from the Father.

By the numbers
1) Draw means to attract and that attraction can be rejected as used in John 6:44 and John 12:32.
2) Everyone placed in Christ has been drawn and has "learned" such that they fully trust in Christ.
3) Being "placed in Christ" is being "given to Me."
These truths are self evident.

 

[atpollard]

By the numbers
1) Draw means to attract and that attraction can be rejected as used in John 6:44 and John 12:32.
2) Everyone placed in Christ has been drawn and has "learned" such that they fully trust in Christ.
3) Being "placed in Christ" is being "given to Me."
These truths are self evident.

4) “No one can come to Me unless” really means absolutely nothing, so just completely ignore those words from John 6:44 and all of John 6:43 leading into it.

 

[Derf B]

we have Christ "metaphorically attracting" all men without exception (john 12:32) and raising every one of them on the last day (John 6:44) ... PTL: UNIVERSALISM!

Why is that universalism (where all are given eternal life)? We already have Christ saying all will be resurrected in the previous chapter? But some will be resurrected unto damnation, which is not the kind of universalism you are referring to.
[Jhn 5:25 KJV] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[Jhn 5:28 KJV] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[Jhn 5:29 KJV] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In fact, if Jesus voice causes those who hear it to come forth from the grave, and "they that hear it shall live", and some of those that hear it "live" unto damnation, then there is your "drawing" of all men to Himself, by His command. Universal in effect toward resurrection--not universal unto the good kind of resurrection (to life eternal).

 

[Derf B]

Let's look at God's track record for "attracting".

Yes, let's!
Did Abram seek God or did God call out Abram?

[Gen 18:19 KJV] For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.​

Did Moses seek God or did God choose Moses?

[Exo 2:11 KJV] And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.​

Did David seek God or did God choose David?

[1Sa 15:28 KJV] And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, [that is] better than thou.
​

Did Samuel choose God or did God choose Samuel?

[1Sa 1:11 KJV] And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.
​

Did Peter seek Jesus or did Jesus choose Peter?

[Jhn 1:40 KJV] One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
[Jhn 1:41 KJV] He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
[Jhn 1:42 KJV] And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
​

Did Saul/Paul choose Jesus or did Jesus choose Paul?

[Act 22:3 KJV] I am verily a man [which am] a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.​

Are we starting to see any patterns yet?

Yes, I think we are!

Here's another one: Did Nathanael choose Jesus or did Jesus choose Nathanael?

[Jhn 1:47 KJV] Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
And another one:​

And a couple more that are telling in their own way:
Did King Saul seek God or did God seek Saul?

We all know God chose Saul. But what a choice it was. Yet God didn't reject Saul as king until Saul rejected God: [1Sa 15:26 KJV] And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.​

Did Jesus seek Judas or did Judas seek Jesus?

[Jhn 6:70 KJV] Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?​

Even in the passage about drawing, Jesus said this:

[Jhn 6:64 KJV] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.​

God's drawing and choosing does not necessarily mean for salvation.

Jesus knew those they believed and those that did not believe "from the beginning" (which means from the beginning of His ministry). So Jesus was drawing those that actually believed, vs Judas, who would betray Him. God therefore draws some who come, but are not believers.