biggest objection to Unlimited atonement viewis?

[Yeshua1]

Biggest reason would be?

 

[SolaSaint]

It would be anti-biblical.

 

[convicted1]

The unlimited atonement view wrests election from God's hand and places it in man's...

 

[Winman]

The unlimited atonement view wrests election from God's hand and places it in man's...

Explain exactly how that works. If God has elected or chosen to save those whom he knows will choose to believe, how is a man choosing to believe wresting election from God?

This is like the story of Gideon when he had too many men. God told him to take his men down to water and observe how they drink. Those that lapped water like a dog were chosen by God to fight for Gideon.

Jud 7:5 So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

Now, whether a man put his mouth to the water or lapped like a dog was a personal choice, but the choice to only take the men who lapped like a dog was God's. Isn't that correct?

If God has elected to only save those who believe, how does a man choosing to believe usurp God's sovereignty in choosing whom he wills to save?

Calvinism is supported by bogus arguments. With even a little thought it is EASY to see right through them.

 

[convicted1]

Brother, I promise you this; you're not within 1,000,000 miles of calvinism. Not even that close probably. You have a view of it in your head, and it's not that view, I promise you. I was like you at one time, thinking I knew what it was, but was wrong.

Now onto what I posted and why I posted it that way.

If God sent His Son to die for all w/o exception, He chose/elected all w/o exception, correct? Now, in this election, there's something missing. God then has to sit back and wait for them to either accept or reject His drawing, correct? Now, those who reject it have unelected themselves, and those who accept it then elect themselves; thereby, they have wrested election out of God's hands and placed it in theirs.

 

[Winman]

Brother, I promise you this; you're not within 1,000,000 miles of calvinism. Not even that close probably. You have a view of it in your head, and it's not that view, I promise you. I was like you at one time, thinking I knew what it was, but was wrong.

Now onto what I posted and why I posted it that way.

If God sent His Son to die for all w/o exception, He chose/elected all w/o exception, correct? Now, in this election, there's something missing. God then has to sit back and wait for them to either accept or reject His drawing, correct? Now, those who reject it have unelected themselves, and those who accept it then elect themselves; thereby, they have wrested election out of God's hands and placed it in theirs.

God chose to sit back and wait for persons to believe. He doesn't force people Willis. He holds out his hands to all men and literally begs them to be reconciled to himself. This is shown so many times in scripture, how can you deny it Willis??

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Now, in your view, God KNOWS these persons cannot come to him unless he regenerates them, yet God complains they will not come to him when he calls.

Does that make sense to you Willis? Really?

You have to throw your brain in the garbage to believe this stuff.

I think it is you that is missing it Willis. Big time.

 

[Inspector Javert]

If God sent His Son to die for all w/o exception, He chose/elected all w/o exception, correct?

No, that only follows if you presuppose Limited Atonement, wherein it is the "elect" specifically and only for whom Christ died.

The Alternative view is that Christ died for the "World" and the "elect" are a sub-set of the whole.

Now, in this election, there's something missing. God then has to sit back and wait for them to either accept or reject His drawing, correct? Now, those who reject it have unelected themselves, and those who accept it then elect themselves; thereby, they have wrested election out of God's hands and placed it in theirs.

Not if Christ died for the whole world and the "elect" are only those who choose to believe and repent.

The alternative view does not have pre-existing sets of the "elect" and the "non-elect". One only becomes one of the "elect" when and if they believe.... similarly, one only becomes one of the damned when and if they die in their sin. It simply has God choosing or "electing" to save those who will believe.

 

[convicted1]

No, that only follows if you presuppose Limited Atonement, wherein it is the "elect" specifically and only for whom Christ died.

The Alternative view is that Christ died for the "World" and the "elect" are a sub-set of the whole.

Not if Christ died for the whole world and the "elect" are only those who choose to believe and repent.

The alternative view does not have pre-existing sets of the "elect" and the "non-elect". One only becomes one of the "elect" when and if they believe.... similarly, one only becomes one of the damned when and if they die in their sin. It simply has God choosing or "electing" to save those who will believe.

Brother, you've completely missed my point, so I must have worded my last post badly. If I did, please forgive me.

Now, in the other side of the debate's view(your's), all peoples, nations, kindreds, tongues, are on the same playing field, seeing that Christ died for everyone w/o exception, even those He knew would reject Him until they day He died they would reject Him. Regardless of how much the Spirit works with them, draws them, speaks to them, sends people to witness to them, they will still die lost. Eventhough God threw everything at them but the proverbial kitchen sink, they resisted all the way to the grave. God chose them, but they didn't choose God. Now, in this scenario, who has/had all the power in their salvation?


In our view of this debate, all men are born in the same condemned state, on the same playing field, if you will. God, in His grace, love and mercy, chose a people to redeem, that as He told Abram, "If you can # the stars you can # my people", and they were given to the Lamb to redeem from the accursed. I would fall into the infra- or sublapsarian view of predestination/election, btw. These elected/chosen people, God provided a Lamb to be slain for them. It was their sins, and only their sins, that He atoned for on the cross. God chose them even before they were born to redeem from the accursed. He would send the gospel to draw them out from the world, from the goats...the goats having no desire to come to Him, are left in their fallen state.


The Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption puts the onus on God, and the Unlimited Atonement, man.

 

[convicted1]

God chose to sit back and wait for persons to believe. He doesn't force people Willis. He holds out his hands to all men and literally begs them to be reconciled to himself. This is shown so many times in scripture, how can you deny it Willis??

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Now, in your view, God KNOWS these persons cannot come to him unless he regenerates them, yet God complains they will not come to him when he calls.

Does that make sense to you Willis? Really?

You have to throw your brain in the garbage to believe this stuff.

I think it is you that is missing it Willis. Big time.

Okay, back to another thread we were on that got closed and I'll tie it into this one...

Those who died never hearing of Jesus, never knowing He even existed. What becomes of them on Judgement Day?

 

[Inspector Javert]

Hi Willis, perhaps it was your wording:

Now, in the other side of the debate's view(your's), all peoples, nations, kindreds, tongues, are on the same playing field, seeing that Christ died for everyone w/o exception, even those He knew would reject Him until they day He died they would reject Him. Regardless of how much the Spirit works with them, draws them, speaks to them, sends people to witness to them, they will still die lost. Eventhough God threw everything at them but the proverbial kitchen sink, they resisted all the way to the grave.

We're good up to this point:

God chose them, but they didn't choose God.

God did not choose them, by definition, he only chooses those who believe in him.

Now, in this scenario, who has/had all the power in their salvation?

God does.
The question is never who has the power, but how God has chosen to excercise that power.
If God chooses to save all men Unconditionally, he has the power.
If God chooses to save no man, he has the power.
If God chooses to unconditionally save some, he has the power.
If God chooses to save those who believe, he has the power.

I believe it is the latter. He "chooses" those who believe.
....................

The Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption puts the onus on God,

Yes.

and the Unlimited Atonement, man.

Yes. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Okay, back to another thread we were on that got closed and I'll tie it into this one...

Those who died never hearing of Jesus, never knowing He even existed. What becomes of them on Judgement Day?

They go to hell, and are justly punished eternally for their sins.
So what.

You're not worried that that is somehow "unfair" of God are you?

However, no such scenario actually exists:

never knowing He even existed

Romans 1:10, 1:28, 1:32, Romans 2:1

 

[convicted1]

They go to hell, and are justly punished eternally for their sins.

I agree with you here.

So what.

You're not worried that that is somehow "unfair" of God are you?

Nope. God would have remained fair if He had decided to save no one. Yet in His grace, love, and mercy, chose a people to redeem via Jesus Christ.

However, no such scenario actually exists:

Romans 1:10, 1:28, 1:32, Romans 2:1

Yet, if they don't know Jesus, they don't know God . Buddhists worship Buddha, Muslims worship Allah. They are their "god", and that's why people can get away with saying god...intentional lower case "g". But if you say the name Jesus, people become offended by His glorious name.

People centuries ago never heard His name. The native americans at the time of the Pilgrims in ~1620 never heard about Jesus, imo. They worshipped "god", but not God, knowing not Jesus. Natural revelation showed them there was a Creator, that's why they would leave the animal's heart so it could roam in the "happy hunting ground" in the hear after.

To truly know God, is to worship Jesus Christ.

They didn't and will pay for it...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To truly know God, is to worship Jesus Christ.

They didn't and will pay for it...

Wait....are you saying that heathens that never hear Jesus are damned?

Buddhist yes Muslems yes Jews yes.....for they have rejected CHRIST outright, but a heathen who has never heard on this earth....in this temperal time is nothing but a little child & innocent. They are saved by the blood.

 

[Winman]

Okay, back to another thread we were on that got closed and I'll tie it into this one...

Those who died never hearing of Jesus, never knowing He even existed. What becomes of them on Judgement Day?

I don't know and neither do you.

The only scripture I know that seems to pertain to this shows that people are judged according to what they know.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now, I cannot explain what many stripes and few stripes means, but this seems to argue those who never hear the gospel will not be treated as harshly as those who have heard.

But how does this support Limited Atonement Willis? The fact that a person does not hear the gospel does not mean Jesus did not die for them.

I have used my Super Bowl ticket analogy in the past. Let's say I bought a Super Bowl ticket for every member of BB. I post a thread stating that anyone who PMs me their address will get a pair of tickets free.

Those who believe my offer and send me a PM get their free tickets.

Those who do not believe (or do not care) my offer and do not send me a PM do not receive free tickets.

Does their rejection mean I did not buy them tickets? NO.

What about persons who never see the offer I posted? Does this mean I did not buy them tickets? NO, tickets were purchased for them and paid in full.

So, the fact that some persons never hear the gospel does not mean Jesus did not die for them.

We are told to preach the gospel to "every" creature. It would be a lie to preach the gospel to every person unless it applied to them.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Does this verse show God in control? YES. Jesus said those who believe shall be saved, those who do not believe shall be damned.

Isn't that showing God in complete control even though men are making a personal decision Willis??

 

[JamesL]

Those who died never hearing of Jesus, never knowing He even existed. What becomes of them on Judgement Day?

I think of a few times that people brought hypotheticals to Jesus for no purpose other than to see Him writhe uncomfortably and put His teaching between the proverbial rock and hard place.

1 woman, taken as a wife by each of 7 brothers. Whose wife is she in the resurrection?
This was asked only because the Sadducees denied the resurrection

Why not argue from scripture, rather than a hypothetical that is aimed at putting someone on the spot?

Just curiuos

 

[convicted1]

Wait....are you saying that heathens that never hear Jesus are damned?

According to scripture, yes. How can they get into the sheepfold any other way? Jesus is the Door to the sheepfold. That sheepfold has One Shepherd who died for His sheep, and no one else.

Buddhist yes Muslims yes Jews yes.....for they have rejected CHRIST outright, but a heathen who has never heard on this earth....in this temperal time is nothing but a little child & innocent. They are saved by the blood.

Look, w/o Jesus, all of us would be lost, doomed w/o hope. He came to redeem a people from their sins, and not one of them will die lost. If the heathen who knew not Christ, nor heard of Him, dies in his/her lost condition, it's obvious they were "none of His", those chosen from the foundation of the world.

 

[convicted1]

I don't know and neither do you.

The only scripture I know that seems to pertain to this shows that people are judged according to what they know.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now, I cannot explain what many stripes and few stripes means, but this seems to argue those who never hear the gospel will not be treated as harshly as those who have heard.

But how does this support Limited Atonement Willis? The fact that a person does not hear the gospel does not mean Jesus did not die for them.

I have used my Super Bowl ticket analogy in the past. Let's say I bought a Super Bowl ticket for every member of BB. I post a thread stating that anyone who PMs me their address will get a pair of tickets free.

Those who believe my offer and send me a PM get their free tickets.

Those who do not believe (or do not care) my offer and do not send me a PM do not receive free tickets.

Does their rejection mean I did not buy them tickets? NO.

What about persons who never see the offer I posted? Does this mean I did not buy them tickets? NO, tickets were purchased for them and paid in full.

So, the fact that some persons never hear the gospel does not mean Jesus did not die for them.

We are told to preach the gospel to "every" creature. It would be a lie to preach the gospel to every person unless it applied to them.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Does this verse show God in control? YES. Jesus said those who believe shall be saved, those who do not believe shall be damned.

Isn't that showing God in complete control even though men are making a personal decision Willis??

Oh yes I do know, Brother. Jesus is the Door to the sheepfold. If any tries to enter in any other way, is the same as a thief and a robber. They can't get into this fold except they go through that Door Jesus. If they don't know that Door, again, how can they enter into the fold?


Your SB tix analogy is erroneous. Jesus didn't purchase redemption for everyone, offering it to all, only to have some spit on it. He purchased redemption for those the Father gave Him to redeem, and no one else.

 

[convicted1]

I think of a few times that people brought hypotheticals to Jesus for no purpose other than to see Him writhe uncomfortably and put His teaching between the proverbial rock and hard place.

1 woman, taken as a wife by each of 7 brothers. Whose wife is she in the resurrection?
This was asked only because the Sadducees denied the resurrection

Why not argue from scripture, rather than a hypothetical that is aimed at putting someone on the spot?

Just curiuos

See my last two posts, please. Jesus is the only Way to the Father. He's the only One who can get us back in "right standing" with God. If they don't know Jesus exists/existed they're not in "right standing" with God, and never will.