Bill Belichick, poor loser!

[InTheLight]

My friend, what if make good talk but not much truth. In my book three of the best QBs to play were Dan Marino, Sonny Jurgensen and "Slingin" Sammy Baugh, never won a super bowel but Sammy won an NFL championship before super bowels. Some days just aren't yours. I lived in St. Louis Park, Mn. when the Twins loss to LA in the WS. After the first two games all looked well, then things changed. I still think Killebew is just as good as if they had won. I guess a LDS can play baseball for the Twins but can't live in the White House.

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[Bob Alkire]

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Your premise was that Brett Favre would have did better than Brady. To me that is what if, you must think Favre could do what Brady couldn't and believe that Favre was a good qb. How many SB did Brett play in, that he was on the losing team? How many on the winning team? I was just saying that the 3 that I believe to be good qbs are better than Favre and none of them won a super bowl.
On the Twins deal, just because they didn't win the WS didn't change my view of them, they were still a good team. Winning the SB does not make you a good qb, you were either good going in or not and except most were good going in and coming out.

 

[InTheLight]

Your premise was that Brett Favre would have did better than Brady. To me that is what if, you must think Favre could do what Brady couldn't and believe that Favre was a good qb. How many SB did Brett play in, that he was on the losing team? How many on the winning team? I was just saying that the 3 that I believe to be good qbs are better than Favre and none of them won a super bowl.

Favre's teams were 1-1 in the Super Bowl, but that not the point. The point is--Do you think your top 3 QB's would have beaten the Giants in the Super Bowl had they been the QB on the 18-0 Patriots? That's it. Brady didn't get the job done, I feel that Favre or Montana would have risen to the challenge.

On the Twins deal, just because they didn't win the WS didn't change my view of them, they were still a good team. Winning the SB does not make you a good qb, you were either good going in or not and except most were good going in and coming out.

The question isn't "is Tom Brady a good QB?" The question is, "Is Tom Brady overrated?"

 

[Alcott]

I stand corrected. Do you think it is true that Ty Cobb sharpened his spikes?

Yes, to many old players said so.

The only reason I would doubt if he did is because I'm not sure if it was really necessary. Coming into a base "with your steel showing" often could get the edge looked for, sharpened or not. And does anyone doubt he made that work? Many of his records held up for almost a century, but I'm sure he still holds many in the record book, and you can't deny the fear of being stabbed or slashed by the team in the field got his Tigers (or Athletics) some more runs, and thus some more wins.

 

[ccrobinson]

My premise is that "had Brett Favre been the QB of the 16-0 Patriots no way would he have lost that game" not "Brett Favre as QB of the Packers".

Brett Favre was the QB of a team that played those New York Giants and lost. You can bring up all the hypotheticals you want, but the fact is that Brett Favre played that particular Giants team and lost.

My point is that Brady had a chance at NFL immortality and he came out and played a so-so game. Here is a team that just set an NFL record for offensive scoring and are undefeated. One more victory over a team that got into the playoffs via the Wild Card and they would have been the greatest team of all time. But Brady didn't have it in him to do it.

First, Brady's already an NFL Immortal, isn't he? Or, do 3 Super Bowl wins count for nothing?

Second, I have a few questions designed to tear down this "didn't have it in him" nonsense. What did Brady not have in that game that he had against the Rams, the Panthers or Eagles? Or in winning 3 AFC Championship Games? Brady led 2 game winning drives to win 2 Super Bowls, so he must have had it then, but somehow, he didn't have it anymore?

You mentioned Montana and Favre, holding them both up as shining examples of players who, presumably, would have had it in them to win if they were QB of those Patriots. But, both players have had times of "having it in them" and not "having it in them".

For example, Montana won 4 Super Bowls, but what happened in the 1990 NFC Championship Game? He somehow didn't have it anymore? Favre beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl, but somehow, he didn't have it for the next year's Super Bowl when the favored Packers lost to the Broncos. That's also the Super Bowl where John Elway, according to the logic of having it in him, suddenly developed whatever it is to win after having lost 3 Super Bowls.

Football is too complex a game to be explained away by lazy narratives.

Remember when they cleaned the snowy field so their field goal kicker could kick the winning field goal off the ground rather than off snow?

It's not hard to get facts right, but why let facts get in the way of a good story?

Here's a recap of the snowplow game that happened on December 12th, 1982. Belichick wasn't the coach then. You want to claim Belichick cheated? No problem. He clearly did when illegally filming their opponent. But, you can't use the Snowplow game to make your case. BTW, please provide evidence to support your first claim about opening stadium doors to affect field goals.

never won a super bowel

:laugh:

Mr. Alkire? Sir? That's Super Bowl, not super bowel. I don't really want to consider what a super bowel is. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[InTheLight]

First, Brady's already an NFL Immortal, isn't he? Or, do 3 Super Bowl wins count for nothing?

He's a first ballot HOF lock. If he could have led the Pats to a 19-0 record, he would have achieved an accomplishment that likely would never be duplicated. He would have rightly been able to claim "Best quarterback in NFL history."

He's not had a very good playoff record since the Patriots beat the Eagles in the Super Bowl following the 2004 season. Oh, he looks real good in that first playoff game--just as he did this year vs. Houston--but as the Pats get nearer to the Super Bowl his performance declines.

The question is "Is Tom Brady overrated?"

Second, I have a few questions designed to tear down this "didn't have it in him" nonsense. What did Brady not have in that game that he had against the Rams, the Panthers or Eagles? Or in winning 3 AFC Championship Games? Brady led 2 game winning drives to win 2 Super Bowls, so he must have had it then, but somehow, he didn't have it anymore?

Yep, pretty much. He's 8-7 in playoff appearances since beating the Eagles in the Super Bowl. He's had some downright awful playoff games. When the Pats beat Baltimore last year to get to the Super Bowl Brady had 0 TD's and 2 INT, and a QB rating of 57.5. Sunday's game he was 1 TD, 2 INTs, rating of 62.3.

You mentioned Montana and Favre, holding them both up as shining examples of players who, presumably, would have had it in them to win if they were QB of those Patriots. But, both players have had times of "having it in them" and not "having it in them".

<snip>

Yes, players have ups and downs. But every year I hear somebody say "Tom Brady is the best quarterback in NFL history." It just doesn't ring true for me. Brady is 8-7 in playoff appearances since 2004.

Favre and Brady's playoff stats are very similar. Montana's are better than either of them.

So, is Tom Brady the best QB in football history? I say no. Is he overrated? I say nowadays--yes.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Favre's teams were 1-1 in the Super Bowl, but that not the point. The point is--Do you think your top 3 QB's would have beaten the Giants in the Super Bowl had they been the QB on the 18-0 Patriots? That's it. Brady didn't get the job done, I feel that Favre or Montana would have risen to the challenge.



The question isn't "is Tom Brady a good QB?" The question is, "Is Tom Brady overrated?"

No, I don't think Brady is overrated. I'm not a fan of him or NE.
Your question goes back to what if, and I don't know, but I would say they would have a better chance than Brett. I like Brett but Lorenzo throws to many passes to the other team. But in the what if games, we never will know.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Mr. Alkire? Sir? That's Super Bowl, not super bowel. I don't really want to consider what a super bowel is. :smilewinkgrin:

I think I might need to learn to spell, I believe my 3rd. grade teacher kept telling me that and then I was drafted.

 

[Bob Alkire]

I stand corrected. Do you think it is true that Ty Cobb sharpened his spikes?



The only reason I would doubt if he did is because I'm not sure if it was really necessary. Coming into a base "with your steel showing" often could get the edge looked for, sharpened or not. And does anyone doubt he made that work? Many of his records held up for almost a century, but I'm sure he still holds many in the record book, and you can't deny the fear of being stabbed or slashed by the team in the field got his Tigers (or Athletics) some more runs, and thus some more wins.

I use to hear Dizzy Dean telling all the Cobb stories. I came away thinking he sure was one mean guy.
Cobb quotes;
"When I began playing the game, baseball was about as gentlemanly as a kick in the crotch."
"Baseball is a red-blooded sport for red-blooded man. It's no pink tea, and mollycoddles had better stay out. It's a struggle for supremacy, survival of the fittest."

 

[JPPT1974]

He is beyond a poor and sore loser. As all of the losing coaches come out and talk to the media. As he did not. But sent another player out there to do his dirty work!

 

[ccrobinson]

As all of the losing coaches come out and talk to the media. As he did not.

This is not true. Please get your facts right or don't bother coming to debate here. Belichick did talk to the media after the game. What he did not do is talk to the reporter on the field after the game.

So, is Tom Brady the best QB in football history? I say no. Is he overrated? I say nowadays--yes.

I don't know who you're arguing against, because the only way Brady was going to be called GOAT is if he made it to the Super Bowl and won and he didn't. It's a lovely strawman you've built, calling a 3 time Super Bowl winning QB overrated so you can properly tear him down. I happen to think he's properly rated as a great QB who is in the argument for GOAT, but falls short.

 

[Robert Snow]

Belichick is a sore-loser and a jerk. He's been this way for as long as I can remember. I love to see him lose and always pull for the other team.

 

[TadQueasy]

Everyone complains about Belichick when he does this, but no one mentions that Jim Harbaugh did the exact same thing this year and last year. Yet he is heralded by so many as the golden boy in the NFL now.

And it is funny to me how the Patriots are always characterized as cheaters, etc. Yet I would guarantee you they were not the only ones in the league doing such things. They were just the only ones who got caught. Face it, sports, especially pro sports, where people are paid a ton of money is full of cheaters. It happens in every sport and by probably just about every team.

I cannot help but think the bigger issue here is so many fans of other teams are jealous of the Patriots 3 Superbowls over the last decade or so.

 

[InTheLight]

I don't know who you're arguing against, because the only way Brady was going to be called GOAT is if he made it to the Super Bowl and won and he didn't. It's a lovely strawman you've built, calling a 3 time Super Bowl winning QB overrated so you can properly tear him down. I happen to think he's properly rated as a great QB who is in the argument for GOAT, but falls short.

Speaking of strawmen, I never said Brady was a Goat. I said that he's overrated. He was the best QB in football for years, but he's not anymore. Still, commentators and others carry on as if it's 2002 or something. Just take a look at his playoffs stats in the past 7 or 8 years. He has a very good game in the first round and then is below average or poor.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/post/