Birth control and Christian colleges.

[Dr. Bob]

Anecdotal stories are wonderful touchy-feely. They are opinions based on what happened to one person with circumstances not totally known.

That an MD said "don't" and someone "did" and did not have a problem is wonderful. I believe in "taking charge of my own health". But it is not evidence. Not scripture. Not anything more than a nice story, an opinion.

Everyone has opinions and stories. Did NOT mean to make light of yours, just to put it in perspective as a "story".

 

[foxrev]

Bob:

Again, you demean the facts. Not evidence? What?

There is nothing touchy-feely about these events. If they are emotional, so be it! God has emotions and uses them for His glory.

Must be pretty cold up there in Wyoming.

 

[Paul33]

Bob,

Think! Think! Think!

What does God's Word say! Think man! Turn back to the Bible! Think! Think! Think!

No one is saying we shouldn't use modern means. But using birth control to thwart the "general" teaching of God's Word concerning children is "problematic."

Your "thinking" and "modern means" argument is so trite and irrelevant. No one is saying, "Don't think" or "Don't use modern technology."

Think about what your saying!

 

[Dr. Bob]

57F and a little cloudy, actually

What does the Bible say about birth control. Does it say we should not use any? Does it say it is "thwarting" God's will - ala lightning rods?

You can say my arguments are trite but I am trying to speak simply to you all because I am befuddled by folks ADDING to the Bible and supporting a position that is NOT in the Bible.

Be fruitful and multiply DOES NOT MEAN have as many babies as possible until your body falls apart after 15-20. Such implication is reprehensible to my body being a temple of God the Spirit.

This is the jump in logic one makes denying the use of legitimate medical science/devices.

 

[joyfulkeeperathome]

NFP - natural family planning. It is where you use your body's natural signs of ovulation to determine when the best times to abstain are. It does take more work than just popping a pill, but we both know that the pill is not the right answer. I only suggest this be used when a couple truly feels that to be pregnant would be dangerous to the woman's health (such as in your case.) This truly is a very personal decisional that no one can make for you. Here are some links for you - I have not read everything on these sites, I just wanted to give you a place to start...

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/2879/index.html
http://familydoctor.org/x1740.xml
http://www.epigee.org/guide/natural.html

Oh, I thought of one more safe possibility - a diahpram! That could work for you, maybe....

Anyway, I hope you are able to use this as a starting point to finding the right answers for your family!

 

[Pastor Larry]

However, the administration promotes BC. In their marital counseling they do this at the university. Faculty teach it as well -why? Because they have to that they do not go over the limit set of 3.

There is no set limit of children at BJU. That is just a plain old false statement. You give increasing evidence that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Why not stop talking?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by foxrev:
God does not speak about Birth Control?

Hmmm. Well, he surely speaks of the one flesh relationship enough. God makes very clear that there is to be a continual close physical relationship between husband and wife. I Corinthians 7 is crystal clear about that.

[/qb/]Yes, indeed ... which has nothing to do with birth control.

[qb]Also, is Proverbs and the Song of Solomon. Psalm 126 is crystal clear that "The fruit of the womb is His reward!"

Yes indeed, which has nothing to do with birth control.

Ok, why would anyone not want a "Reward?" Doesn't make ANY sense![/qutoe]It does if you think about it. A young couple may not be established yet to have kids. It may not be financially feasible. There may be health reasons, such has as have been discussed. And it is not about not wanting a reward. It is about using the mind and wisdom that God gave you.

The bottom line is that God EXPECTS us to trust Him in the matter and go on and ENJOY the one flesh relationship in marriage without the interference of any device of man!

Which is true, but has nothing to do iwth birth control.

The fact remains that God didn't speak about that, and he certainly will not start now.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Why do Christian colleges, Bible colleges, seminaries, and fundamental churches avoid speaking out against the unbiblical use of birth control?

Huh? The idea that use of birth control (to wit: in marriage) is unbiblical is, imo, a good example of taking scripture out of context.

The Bible clearly teaches that children are a heritage from the Lord. The OT teaches that children are a blessing. We are also taught to trust the Lord in everything.

Too much of anything has the potential of abuse. Responsible parents will not have any more children than they can provide for. Yet, there are way too many Christian parents who will continue to churn out children and expect God to take care of the situation, completely forgetting that scripture also says "Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God".

When was the last time you heard a college professor or pastor speak out against birth control?

I would honestly question the validity of a professor who did.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Rachel:
I just found out a few months ago that some pills are abortive, just by chance I heard it on the Christian talk radio.

What is never mentioned is that the pill mimics what the body normally does. If your body is not ready to accept a fertilized egg, your body will reject it, never allow it to be implanted, and it will be flushed from your system. A typical woman will have this happen to her numerous times over the coruse of her child-bearing life. The birth control pill mimics that natural bodily function.

I'm not saying this in an attempt to take a stand one way or another (I generally recommend that married persons use barrier methods instead of something that introduces chemicals into the body). But, it happend too often that a patricula side will prefer to withhold certain information if that information compromises their view. This is a good example.

 

[foxrev]

Larry says:
There is no set limit of children at BJU. That is just a plain old false statement.

Chill out. Look there is a limit set by the University insurance for Faculty/Staff. Sure they can have more, but will have to pay for it out of pocket. And in a school where you are not paid very much, guess what. You will see to it that you do not go over the limit of 3 covered by the BJU health insurance plan.

So please stop your character assasinations. As a former staff member of BJU and aquaintance of many present faculty and staff, this policy is still in effect.

 

[foxrev]

Bob says:
What does the Bible say about birth control. Does it say we should not use any? Does it say it is "thwarting" God's will - ala lightning rods?

Is this demeaning the formation of a human life down to that of a "lightning rod?" NOTHING is more sacred than life. Man is made in God's image. Only God can give life. The testube mentality of "modern medicine" needs to go!

Bob also says:
Be fruitful and multiply DOES NOT MEAN have as many babies as possible until your body falls apart after 15-20. Such implication is reprehensible to my body being a temple of God the Spirit.

Wow! So it would be wrong to have that many children? Hmmm. Rose Kennedy had 10 children - ALL by C-section. Tell that to Mrs. Henry, who had that 12th child (it was he who lived in those dark old dreary days of almost-medieval medicine) and grew up to be a great preacher and wrote a lot of commentaries.

Tell folks in my church it was wrong for their mother to have had 17 children. Some are serving the Lord in pulpits and on the mission field. And, their Mom is approaching 90 years of age. Wow, just think how long she could have lived if she hadn't abused her body wrecklessly giving birth to all of those children!

Bob says:
This is the jump in logic one makes denying the use of legitimate medical science/devices.

Well, it must be that God ran out of Grace for today and gave us "god-like" Doctors to help us along the way. Whew. Where would we ever be without Doctors. No wonder they are paid so well. We owe THEM our lives!

 

[Paul33]

Bob and Johnv,

Do you guys even read what I write?

I never said we should have children indiscriminately. In fact, I said if you follow God's method of feeding babies, ovulation stops on average 15 months!

I never said that we should avoid modern technology or medicine. I did say we ought to examine our theology of children based on the Bible as opposed to secular culture.

 

[Paul33]

Only in the 20th century have we come to the conclusion in the church that birth control is acceptable.

Fundamentalists leading the way for the progress of man. Look who's the modernist now!

I'm going to say this one more time for Bob and Johnv. The Bible teaches us that children are a blessing from God; a heritage from the LORD. The Bible also teaches us to acknowledge God in all of our ways! Therefore, our attitude toward children should be one of joy and delight! God blessing us with children is not something we should run away from.

The fact that Bible colleges don't teach this is not surprising to me. We are to busy teaching that "drinking" wine is a sin! Even though Jesus turned water into wine.

What hypocrisy. The Bible teaches that alcohol in and of itself is not a sin; Jesus turns water into wine; and we call it a sin!

The Bible teaches that children are a blessing and we should trust God in every area of life and we say, "No." We have a brain. We can decide for ourselves. Our view and value of children is better than God's view and value of children.

This is exactly what we are doing in regard to this issue. But as independent Baptists, we all know that drinking is a sin!

The Bible says so! Never mind what Jesus did.

 

[Paul33]

My example with wine is only an example. We could substitute any alleged "taboo" that fundamentalists hold. [Women wearing pants, long hair on men, etc.]

 

[foxrev]

Paul states(most accurately and Biblically):
we ought to examine our theology of children based on the Bible as opposed to secular culture.

That hits the bullseye. Thank you Paul. God already has a BC plan in place. Who in the world do we think we are when we say that we need to use the "modern" technology/devices available to us? Who has known the mind of the Lord or who hath been His counsellor? Hmmmmmm.

 

[Paul33]

Johnv,

Let me get this straight. Pastors and professors can speak out on all kinds of issues such as:

Whether kids can go "mixed" swimming or not.
What movies are acceptable, if any.
What clothes are modest.
Where to go on a date.
What music to listen to.
What schools are acceptable to attend.
Whether social drinking is acceptable or not.
Whether dancing is acceptable or not.
What translation of the Bible is acceptable to use.

But! When it comes to talking about birth control and whether or not it is an acceptable part of a believer's life, he loses credibility in your eyes if he suggests that it is unbiblical.

Is that your position?

I think I've touched a nerve! Are there any beam removers around?

 

[foxrev]

I know a gentleman down the street that has a few large cranes for rent.

A glass of water may also be recommended for the proper removal of said beam. It helps one swallow pride. I have drunk a good bit of water on occasion for such a purpose.

 

[FBCPastorsWife]

Originally posted by joyfulkeeperathome:
I just wanted to give you a place to start... http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/2879/index.html
http://familydoctor.org/x1740.xml
http://www.epigee.org/guide/natural.html

Thank you so much for these info sites. I will definitely be looking at them tomorrow.

 

[Jensen]

Who is the one who opens and closes the womb?

God?

 

[foxrev]

That is so beautiful Jensen.

Isn't it amazing that God would give us such a priviledge? So very humbling that we could be blessed in such a way and have a child to raise for His glory.

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is HIS reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate." Proverbs 127:3-5

Fill those quivers for His glory!