Bishops! They are Biblical. Is Pastor?

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Number of Pastors In A Church

from Way of Life Encyclopedia: THE NUMBER OF PASTORS IN A CHURCH. How many pastors or elders should a church have? The Bible usually speaks of elders and pastors in the plural, and the first churches commonly had more than one (Ac 14:23; 15:2; 20:17; Php 1:1; Tit 1:5; Jas 5:14). Yet is wrong to make laws about this because the Bible does not specify any certain number. Like many of the practical things that pertain to church work, the Bible leaves this matter for each church to determine under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If the church is small, it might have only one pastor and elder, while larger churches obviously have more. When a church has more than one pastor, it is proper for one to be the senior pastor and to have the final authority in decisions. That is what we see in the church at Jerusalem. When they had a conference to discuss the issue of law and grace in Acts 15, it was James who summarized the meeting and made the final decision (v. 13-22).

 

[Blammo]

Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Pastors in Eph 4:11 = poimen = a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Pastor's Title

from the Way of Life Encyclopedia: The Pastor's Title

The terms pastor, elder, and bishop describe the same office in the assembly, referring to three different aspects of the church leader's work. Pastor refers to the church leader as the shepherd of the flock, speaking of his work of teaching and nurturing and protecting the assembly (Eph 4:11). "Pastor" is translated from the Greek word poimen, which 16 times in the N.T. is translated "shepherd" (Mt 9:36; 25:32; 26:31; Mr 6:34; 14:27; Lu 2:8,15,18,20; Joh 10:2,11-12,14,16; Heb 13:20). In the Greek language of the N.T., "feed the flock" (Ac 20:28; 1Pe 5:2) literally means "shepherd the flock"; it is from the same root word translated "pastor" and "shepherd." Elder refers to the church leader's maturity and responsibility and the fact that he is to be an example to the church. Bishop refers to the church leader's authority, to the fact that he is to rule the church. The Greek word translated "bishop" is also translated "oversee" (Ac 20:28; 1Pe 5:2). That these terms refer to the same office in the church is seen in their usage. In Tit 1:5,7 the terms "elders" and "bishops" are used interchangeably. In Acts 20 all three terms are applied to the same office. In v. 17 the church leaders are called "elders." In v. 28 the Greek words for bishop ("overseers") and pastor ("feed the flock") are used. 1 Peter 5 also uses these terms to refer to the same office in the church. Verse 1 speaks of the "elders," and v. 2 speaks of these elders as overseers (bishops) and shepherds. The fact that these terms are used interchangeably is significant. A pastor is an elder is a bishop. These are not separate offices.

 

[nate]

Note: The last three titles are much the same office.

Based on what? The Way of Life Bible? The Scripture according to David Cloud? Where does the Bible give the qualifications for pastors?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I just gave you every Scripture to show the qualifications.

It is not according to David Cloud, it is according to the amount of study that David Cloud has put in the Word of God.

I am sure if you studied the Word as long as he has, truly allowing the Spirit to open the meaning to you, you would see the same thing.

People better get the hatred for a man of God out of their hearts, for the Bible says that one that hates his brother is a murderer; and we know that all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire.

One may say, I don't hate him. The bitterness in the words that are spoken show differently.

 

[sbckid]

The deacon is a servant, not a ruler. Church rule by a deacon board is unscriptural and has caused great harm in many assemblies.

Whoa nelly! I'm not positive but I believe your pushing Pastoral dictatorship which is very un-Scriptural. My Pastor can't make money decisions in the house of God without some accountability to other people. We could argue this all you want but I have seen this tear up IFB churches in this area. A pastor who is the only one in Charge embezzled funds. 3 years ago there was 4 IFB churches in our area now there are 7 because 3 of the four have hade church splits so I'm not so sure Cloud is right here.

 

[nate]

People better get the hatred for a man of God out of their hearts, for the Bible says that one that hates his brother is a murderer; and we know that all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire.

One may say, I don't hate him. The bitterness in the words that are spoken show differently.

If you think what I said was hatred why not ask Mr. Cloud about the pope then you'll see some hatred. If what I did was hatred. I don't hate them I condemn him and Jack Chick the same as they condemn the pope. And I aslo condemn the pope in Love.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Scripture given lines up with what Cloud has said. And, if you read it all you would see that Cloud emphatically states that if the pastor's teaching and walk do not line up with the Word of God then he is not qualified as a pastor.

Church Splits? There have been many in the SBC as well. And in Presbyterian, and Methodist, and I would say in every denomination.

That is why there are over 2200 denominations today. Most of which is the cause of some in the congreagtion not caring to hear the truth as it is written in the Word of God.

Corrupt pastors? Again, they can be found in every denomination. Pastors who get greedy for filthy lucre, pastors who commit adultery, pastors who lie.

There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Blammo]

Speaking of "splits":

Somers Montana only has one 18 year old. Nate and SBCKid must be the same person.

:laugh: I'm just kidding guys... but, ..... you do know each other, right?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

nate,

As to the Pope, David Cloud does not condemn him. He condemns his teaching and shows it to be false; as any true child of God should do. The Bible teaches us to expose false doctrine.

Also, we can condemn no man. Man is already condemned if he is not a true believer and follower of Christ. Christ Himself taught this.

 

[EdSutton]

the reverse can be true too. "to be the wife of one husband".

I completely disagree with this statement. Paul in Scripture says one of the qualifications for a bishop (or elder) is that of "the husband of one wife" in KJV phraseology. This is actually the second in the listing in I Tim. 3, and by no stretch do I think it is 'more' important than the first qualification listed which is that of "blameless" lest any misunderstand. The gender of the words 'episkope' and 'presbuteros' are both masculine, I believe, without actually checking. (I did not look up the spelling on the two transliterated Greek words, so please don't anyone nail me over this if I've misspelled them.) Hence this OFFICE is Biblically defined to be "Male Only", and with many more qualifications, and one even has to desire this office, as well. (I Tim. 3; Titus 1, Acts 20, among other Scriptures)

Unless you are saying that a deacon can not (sic) be a woman.

No, I am not saying this - Scripture is! The qualifications for this OFFICE are also spelled out in I Tim. 3, and I believe, Acts 6, although they are not specifically called 'deacons' in Acts 6, to my knowledge. They are said to be 'men' in Acts 6, and are to, again, "be the husband of one wife" in I Tim. 3., so I do agree that Scripture says "a deacon cannot be a woman".

I would add a small caveat, here. I am willing to allow that Scripture may allow the possibility of an 'office' or 'position' of deaconess (note I did NOT say "Woman deacon"), based on Rom. 16:2 and I. Tim. 3: 11 where it is said

11Women -- in like manner grave, not false accusers, vigilant, faithful in all things. (I Tim.3:11 - YLT)

I usually put it this way. "There is no such thing as a 'Woman Deacon'; there may be the office of 'deaconess' in Scripture." And I will not 'fall out' or particularly disagree over that possibility or practice.

And I'll tack this on for free about elders and deacons. Paul identifies himself as a 'deacon' in a couple of places; He never identifies himself as an elder or bishop. Peter, on the other hand identified himself as an elder. Something to consider.

If a deacon can not be a woman, then most assuredly a Pastor cannot be a woman either.

Says who?? Does Scripture?? Based on what?? Oh, wait! I know!!! Let's see. Where is that verse again?? Y'all know which one I am talking about. It's the one that says that the "OFFICES" in the local church, are identical to the "SPIRITUAL GIFTS". (So BTW, we can derive an office of "Senior Pastor" as the 'leader' and the most important person in a local church, with the attendant adulation that goes with it, you understand.) I know it has to be there, somewhere; just can't put my finger on it, at this minute.

I hope you realize I'm not serious with this last little bit. Folks, for the umpteenth time, Scripture does not confute the offices and the gifts. I believe we would be well advised to not do so, either. The gifts are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29); They are given at the sole discretion of the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 12:7,11); Every member of the body of Christ has at least one (I Cor. 12:7); There are no other primary qualifications for the gifts, as I see it. And they are not gender specific!! Even "all the way up? to" the gift of apostle, where one named Junia is said to be "outstanding among the apostles" (Rom. 16:7 - HCSB). If a woman can have the gift of Apostle, why cannot one have the gift of pastor/teacher? She certainly can, when we quit admixing and confusing the gifts and offices.

1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Phillipians 1:1-2 - NKJV)

How extraordinarily rude of Paul and Timothy to ignore the most important person in that church, the Senior Pastor!

Ed

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Is Junia a woman?

 

[EdSutton]

Is Junia a woman?

Yes!
>>>>
Ed

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Yes!
>>>>
Ed

How?

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This does not say they were apostles. It just says that were with the apostles. This raises an issue of other Apostles existing prior to that of Paul by the last part of the verse.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Junia

I cannot find anywhere that Junia was an apostle. I see where Junia was 'noted' among the apostles. To be noted among them does not necessarily mean Junia was actually an apostle.

Nicodemus was noted among the Pharisee sect, yet we find he was a believer while the others were not.

Judas noted among disciples, yet not saved.

Many of Jesus' disciples were not truly of Him in John 6.

The point is, it is not clear Junia was an apostle.

The Word of God is not specific as to the gender of Junia either.

 

[nate]

Speaking of "splits":

Somers Montana only has one 18 year old. Nate and SBCKid must be the same person.

:laugh: I'm just kidding guys... but, ..... you do know each other, right?

I go to Church with him sometimes.:thumbsup: He goes to EastHaven Baptist Church and their Youth Pastor Joey Gardner is one of the most sincere Christ-like examples in my life. Even if he is Baptist. (I'm just kidding)

 

[Inquiring Mind]

I cannot find anywhere that Junia was an apostle. I see where Junia was 'noted' among the apostles. To be noted among them does not necessarily mean Junia was actually an apostle.

I was going to make that argument as well.

 

[Link]

That one article on pastoral authority on teaching seemed to be a bit on the authoratarian side.

I don't agree with the hired pastor concept (and therefore the just fire the pastor concept.) But the Bible does say the saints are to be of one heart and one mind. There are more cases of the epistles warning _congregations_ to deal with false teachers, false prophecies, and false doctrines than there are passages telling pastoral leaders to deal with it. The whole body has a responsibility to guard the teaching.

Also, the apostles appointed a group of elders in every church, not just 'the pastor.' The Bible calls these men elders or overseers. Acts 20 would indicate that the elders are to watch out, because wolves would arise from their own number. If an elder turns into a wolf or speaker of perverse things, the other elders are to watch out for that. If there is just one elder, what happens to the congregation if he turns out to be a wolf? That is one of the major problems with the one-pastor system.

 

[drfuss]

Here is an paper related to the role of Pastors that you may find interesting.
http:www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=414

 

[EdSutton]

I cannot find anywhere that Junia was an apostle. I see where Junia was 'noted' among the apostles. To be noted among them does not necessarily mean Junia was actually an apostle.

Nicodemus was noted among the Pharisee sect, yet we find he was a believer while the others were not.

Judas noted among disciples, yet not saved.

Many of Jesus' disciples were not truly of Him in John 6.

The point is, it is not clear Junia was an apostle.

The Word of God is not specific as to the gender of Junia either.

I'll take these in varying order. Sigh!

First: Yes, I believe the Word of God 'allows' the gender of Junia, as feminine. However, that is not definitive, in itself. The "church father" that commented most on this person, John Chrysostom, said that it was a woman. Other early 'exegetes' include Ambrosiaster, Jerome, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Oecumenius, and John of Damascus, as well as later exegete/theologians Peter Ableard and Peter Lombard. All the above seemed to view this Junian as the wife of Andronicus, which make her a female. Two who had a differing idea seem to be Origen, apparently, and Epiphanius. The most interesting comments are from John Crysostom, who was certainly opposed to women serving as bishops [I believe that I have made this same argument, and I had not even looked to see anything he (John C.) wrote, until today.] yet when commenting on Rom. 16:7 said:

To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles -- just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great is the wisdom of this woman that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.

And the historical data from both the Latin and Greek- the Greek in a couple of instances and the Latin, fairly commonly have Junia as a fairly common female name, and in addition, seem to know little of any male with the name of Junias, the normal male ending, with one exception I've seen, the aforementioned Epiphanius, who spoke of one named Iounian and who he referred to as a bishop of Apameia of Syria. The word in the Greek texts is the accusative,"''Iουνιαν" from the root of "'Iουνιας", granted, which ending can be either masculine or feminine. An interesting sidelight to this is the rare reading found in p.46 where Julia, a clearly feminine name is used. I would argue that the overall summary of this evidence leads me to conclude that Junia is indeed a woman. And I am not 'feminist' agenda driven, by any stretch. And I would also add, that although the Governator, Arnold Schwarzenegger, may know something about "girly men", the Bible doesn't!

Ed