BJU Made the News Again ... in an unlikely place

[Rosell]

It seems to me that any mention of BJU stirs up deep feelings among those who discuss it. And it usually relates to their rules and policies, including their old prohibition of interracial dating. The fact that they are in Greenville, South Carolina probably enhances the confusion.

I'd say that the alumni I've personally met from there haven't done much to enhance my image of the school, both doctrinally or socially. My roomate in college, who transferred from there, found himself in a group of students who apparently didn't really want to be there, and who had a corrupting effect. He also questioned the academic quality of the courses, mainly because he was a 4.0 at BJU and struggled to get good grades at Eastern. Our registrar was generous in allowing courses to transfer, because he understood a lot about BJU and he saw his job as a servant to students, but my roomate had several friends who had much more difficulty getting courses accepted elsewhere.

Others I've met from there tend to be arrogant, dogmatic and lack the ability to convey a Christian sense of grace and love, at least that's the way they come off to me. The only one I encountered at Southwestern Seminary was a young man with whom I had two classes--Systematic Theology and Basic Sermon Preparation, and he was constantly arguing with the professor and other students. On several occasions, he called into question the salvation of others in the class because of a statement they'd made.

Although I do not know him personally, the BJU alum that has given me the most negative impression of the school is Fred Phelps, the pastor from Topeka whose calling is apparently to show to all of America just how angry, hostile and anti-social Baptists can really be. "Christ without grace" seems to be the theme.

Perhaps one day I will meet some BJU alumni who do not fit this image, and my opinion will change. My mind is certainly open to that.

 

[Speedpass]

In the "History and Philosophy of Education" class I just completed, a classmate and I did a report on Bob Jones, Sr, and his effect on American education. Something interesting I found in my research was the fact that Bob Sr was against the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s because many of its adherents had ties to the Communist party.

As a footnote, I did not know that W E B Dubois, towards the end of his life, joined the Communist party, renounced his US citizenship, and moved to Ghana

 

[aefting]

Although I do not know him personally, the BJU alum that has given me the most negative impression of the school is Fred Phelps, the pastor from Topeka whose calling is apparently to show to all of America just how angry, hostile and anti-social Baptists can really be.

Fred Phelps? You've got to be kidding me. He doesn't represent the viewpoint of BJU or their graduates any more than the man on the moon. This is just out right slander.

Andy

 

[freeatlast]

Originally posted by aefting:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If you notice BJU claimed that those who marry ourside of race are equal to those who promote homosexuality, abortion, and other forms of social radicalism.

Perhaps you should read their document more closely. That is not at all what they claimed. The paragraph that you are referring to talks about those who promote agressive social activisim, not those who simple date or marry outside their race. In fact, the very next paragraph says specifically, "Many who date and marry interracially are just as opposed to one-worldism and the spirit of Antichrist as we are." You are, in fact, very wrong about what they said and the spirit behind their previous rule.

Andy </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Andy,
Actually I have read it all and it is not surprising that those who support the University would be in agreement with what they stand for. The fact that they have a very good PR campaign and are able to make something evil sound righteous should surprise no one. As I said not until they denounce what has taken place there and openly state that those who held those views and made the policies did evil are they fit to name the name of Christ or teach His word in my opinion.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Rosell:
Although I do not know him personally, the BJU alum that has given me the most negative impression of the school is Fred Phelps, the pastor from Topeka whose calling is apparently to show to all of America just how angry, hostile and anti-social Baptists can really be. "Christ without grace" seems to be the theme.

Fred Phelps is a BJU alum? I didn't know that but it would certainly explain a lot.

Perhaps one day I will meet some BJU alumni who do not fit this image, and my opinion will change. My mind is certainly open to that. [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[Scott J]

The most godly pastor I have ever had was a BJU graduate. I have heard their dean of students speak and found him absolutely exceptional. No one that I have personally known from there exhibited anything of a hateful or racist attitude. In fact, the church pastored by this BJU grad was not only "a reflection of its community" (integrated) it had at least two mixed couples.

Additionally, I know or have known several people who attended there. They have never indicated any of the things being thrown around on this thread.

They have some flaws and I would disagree with their former policy on dating as well. At the same time, I think many folks are guilty of being hyper-critical when it comes to BJU. Holding a policy against inter-racial dating is not worse than say... allowing a lesbian to resume activities as a pastor or denying the fundamentals of the faith. The fact that the more PC and liberal elements of both our society and religions try to find a reason to condemn BJU makes me much more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt... or even defend them.

 

[freeatlast]

The issue is not that one sin is greater then another, but that BJU has dishonored the Lord and has not repented. The fact that men come from there and pastor a church and win someone's favor does not make them great men of God. If they were godly they would stand against what BJU held and denounce it openly as being not of God.

 

[jshurley04]

Freeatlast,

How in the world can you look at a dating policy and surmise that the whole univercity is racist? If you were Jewish would you be so offended? Probably not, why, because you know that the Lord has established for the Jews to remain racially pure. Now, tell me if you were white in 1955 and fell in love with and married a black lady and had children that you would want all people to endure the same level of persecution and being an outcast as you would have endured. It was and still is a good policy because there are still many who feel the same way about the issue now as back in the 50's. Children are also much more harsh than adults many times, I would never want my child to have to grow up under such pressure and hate. They are a private institution that has the right to establish whatever standards they want, my problem is that they gave in to crybabies such as yourself and changed.

 

[freeatlast]

Hello jshurley04
I am speaking about the policy, not the people who attend. The leaders of the university hold the responsibility for the rules made and they also hold the reponsibility for making it right.

 

[Loren B]

Free at last,
Your obvious hatred of the institution does not do your argument any good.
You need to get the beam out of your own eye before you try to remove the mote out of anothers.

 

[Greg Linscott]

freeatlast,

I'm wondering if you would then give your endorsement of institutions who share similar standards and philosophy with BJU, but have not had the dating policy issue that you seem to be hung up on. There are several schools that could fit this description, such as Pensacola Christian College, Northland Baptist Bible College, Ambassador Baptist College, Faith Baptist Bible College, Maranatha Baptist Bible College... Each one may have subtle differences (which isn't the point of bringing them up), but are similar enough for the purposes of this discussion.

My concern with this whole line of discussion is that most of you piling on BJU would not have any concern for the institution (positive or negative) at all were it not for the hype generated around this issue.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by jshurley04:
If you were Jewish would you be so offended? Probably not, why, because you know that the Lord has established for the Jews to remain racially pure.

The word of the Lord says nothing about him wanting the Jews to remain "racially pure." The prohibition on intermarriage with other nations was for the purpose of keeping them spiritually pure. When those of other nationalities embraced the God of Israel there was no problem with them marrying Jews.

Moses married an Ethiopian woman and when his sister complained of it, God struck her, not him, "leprous as snow."

Ruth was a Moabite, and yet she joined with the people of Israel, had a book in the Bible written about her life, and entered the lineage of Christ. If this had anything to do with "racial purity" then Jesus Christ Himself is not "racially pure."

The reality is, the only two races are the Adamic race and the Christian race. And those of the Adamic race are welcome to join the Christian race at any time they are willing, where there is neither Jew nor Greek, Barbarian nor Scythian, but Christ is all and in all.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[aefting]

Greg,

I would not be surprised if PCC or some of the older Christian schools (fundamental or otherwise) had a similar rule at some point in their history. Your post reminded me of an anecdote that a friend of mine told a few years ago:

I met with the pastor of a local church about building a web site for them. Feeling risky, I decided to ask him about Bob Jones University - you see, he and every member of his church is black. His response caught me off guard.

After a pause, he said:
"I attended an all-black seminary in St. Louis which did not allow interracial dating."

When I lived in Baltimore, Kweisi Mfume (now president of the NAACP) hosted a local Black-issues TV show. I distinctly remember a show in which he decried a growing "problem" with black men who were not marrying black women.

People look at the rule that BJ had and conclude that they must be anti-black racists. It just isn't so.


Andy

 

[Siegfried]

BJU's stance on interracial dating was a grievous error, make no mistake. I was also disappointed watching Larry King the night the ban was repealed when Dr. Jones said, "This policy was never a big deal to us" (not a precise quote, I'm sure, but a pretty faithful paraphrase). That statement was pure hogwash. For crying out loud, they went to the Supreme Court over it. How much bigger a deal can it get?

That said, these broad brush statements about BJU grads are wholly unfair. Certainly there are a lot of really rotten apples out there, but there are also a lot of theologically sound, gracious, Christ-like pastors and laymen out there. Although BJU has positioned itself as the headquarters of the Fundamentalist "denomination," it seems that more and more fundamentalists are thinking independently and biblically as time goes on, which is good both for the school and for fundamentalism.

 

[freeatlast]

Originally posted by Greg Linscott:
freeatlast,

I'm wondering if you would then give your endorsement of institutions who share similar standards and philosophy with BJU, but have not had the dating policy issue that you seem to be hung up on. There are several schools that could fit this description, such as Pensacola Christian College, Northland Baptist Bible College, Ambassador Baptist College, Faith Baptist Bible College, Maranatha Baptist Bible College... Each one may have subtle differences (which isn't the point of bringing them up), but are similar enough for the purposes of this discussion.

My concern with this whole line of discussion is that most of you piling on BJU would not have any concern for the institution (positive or negative) at all were it not for the hype generated around this issue.

Hello Greg,
if I understand you correctly you are asking me if the only problem I have is with BJU is its racism in the past for dating. The answer is yes. There was no need to go any further since I see what they did as serious. The problem with the race issue was enough for me to stand against them since they claim to be Christian. Even though they have changed their policy it is clear that they have not repented by their own statements. To me that is not enough. As I stated they need to openly denounce those who made the policy in the past and offer an open apology to those who it effected which is everyone who stands with Christ for truth. As for those other teaching schools who you mentioned I know nothing about them however if they had simular rules they too need to repent.

 

[Greg Linscott]

Andy,

You're right- some of the schools did (I know of at least one on my list that had a similar rule).

 

[Pastor Larry]

Just a couple of comments in the thread I started that has now been seriously derailed.

1. A ban on interracial dating is not a racist issue. There is a great misunderstanding about that. So far as I know, as BJU, no races have ever been treated differently than any other race. All races have the same opportunities and obligation.

2. As for the court case, they did not go to court over the ban per se, but rather over the issues involved. It turned out, in the long run, a good thing that they lost that case. It was a case of great over reaching federalism and government interference in a private institution. But financially, it has been a great boon to the university, I think.

3. As for repentance, to me, it is pure hypocrisy to demand repentance over something that is not even a sin. It is not a sin to limit dating relationships. It may not be the best policy, and it is certainly not my view, but it is certainly a far cry from a sin.

It seems to me that Rosell and freeatlast are basing their views on a very limited scope of knowledge. I don't know if either of them have visited the university or spent any time there. That may be a helpful remedy to this solution. At least then, they could have first hand experience of what they are complaining about.

But back to the point of this thread, it was funny how a reference to BJU comes up in a strange place ... That was all ...

 

[LarryN]

Another thread on BJU and racism?

Awhile back, I added my two cents to a similar thread. I recounted that during my time (many years ago) as a student at BJU I encountered some individuals who demonstrated racist attitudes. I made no claim that the racism I encountered was institutionally sanctioned or the school's official policy. Neither did I claim that the attitudes of a few represented the campus community as a whole.

I don't know why it would come as a surprise to anyone that a Southern school with over 70,000 alumni might have at some time or another had some students (or even faculty) with racist attitudes. I believe the same could be said of virtually any campus (Christian or secular) anywhere. Even recently, a local Baptist College in my state expelled a student for distributing racist flyers & painting racist graffiti on campus.

Nevertheless, some on this board responded to my earlier post with cries of "LIAR, LIAR!", and said that no such thing had ever happened on BJU's campus. I guess one can believe it never happened as long as one ignores the eyewitness accounts of those who can say it did.

 

[j_barner2000]

My issue with BJU is that they tend to be a bit legalistic. However, I am praying over leaving the church where I am interning because they are a bit too liberal... I guess you just gotta pray about many issues and see where the Lord leads you.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by freeatlast:
The issue is not that one sin is greater then another, but that BJU has dishonored the Lord and has not repented. The fact that men come from there and pastor a church and win someone's favor does not make them great men of God. If they were godly they would stand against what BJU held and denounce it openly as being not of God.

I have seen portions of BJ III's interview on Larry King and have read the transcripts. What more do you want? Blood? Are you this unforgiving with any Christian group that "dishonored the Lord"?

How can you say they have not repented? They changed the policy and acknowledged on national TV that they were wrong.

Are you ready to be forgiven in the same manner that you forgive?