Black Lives Matter Mission

[Sapper Woody]

I decided to look up Black Lives Matter on Google. My goal was to see if their views matched up with what I have been hearing. I try to do that whenever possible, but it's been one of those "out of sight, out of mind" things. The ONLY time I hear about "Black Lives Matter" is on the Baptist Board. I've gone a whole school week at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock.

Ironically, I ran into a "Way of the Master" street preacher (thinking about starting another thread on that experience), but have seen absolutely nothing about Black Lives Matter. And my classes are roughly 40-50% black.

Regardless, I wanted to see what they really stood for. And now that I've been to their website, and have seen their demands, I absolutely stand against them. Where once I thought that they might be misguided, but well intentioned people, I now see the movement as something malicious.

Let's look at their demands: (taken from their website directly)

•We will seek justice for Brown’s family by petitioning for the immediate arrest of officer Darren Wilson and the dismissal of county prosecutor Robert McCullough. Groups that are part of the local Hands Up Don’t Shoot Coalition have already called for Wilson’s swift arrest, and some BLM riders also canvassed McCullough’s neighborhood as a way of raising the public’s awareness of the case.

So, in other words, they want to arrest a man who has been proven innocent. They are completely disregarding any evidence that has been brought forward, and foolishly call for "justice".

Isaiah 5:20 - Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;

•We will help develop a network of organizations and advocates to form a national policy specifically aimed at redressing the systemic pattern of anti-black law enforcement violence in the US. The Justice Department’s new investigation into St Louis-area police departments is a good start, but it’s not enough. Our ride was endorsed by a few dozen local, regional and national organizations across the country – like the National Organization for Women (Now) and Race Forward: The Center for Racial Justice Innovation – who, while maintaining different missions, have demonstrated unprecedented solidarity in response to anti-black police violence. We hope to encourage more organizations to endorse and participate in a network with a renewed purpose of conceptualizing policy recommendations.

This could, in all honesty, just be an ignorance of the facts. Looking at the numbers, there is NOT a "systemic pattern of anti-black law enforcement violence". Now, I would readily agree that we should look into the police force for violence, and they should have been held more accountable all along. But the numbers just don't add up. I've gone over all the numbers before, and we have our residents here who will disagree with me. But the evidence is there. I've looked at it as impartially as I possibly can, and came to a rational conclusion. The evidence to support systemic racism just isn't there.

•We will also demand, through the network, that the federal government discontinue its supply of military weaponry and equipment to local law enforcement. And though Congress seems to finally be considering measures in this regard, it remains essential to monitor the demilitarization processes and the corporate sectors that financially benefit from the sale of military tools to police.

This is a debate of the decade, it seems. This has nothing to do with race, and I'm not saying they're wrong, necessarily. I'm not convinced they're right, however. I'm still weighing the evidence and arguments on this one.

•We will call on the office of US attorney general Eric Holder to release the names of all officers involved in killing black people within the last five years, both while on patrol and in custody, so they can be brought to justice – if they haven’t already.

Another way to read this would be, "We want to form a lynch mob." It's pretty obvious, and obviously stupid. If the names were released, then ALL the officers, whether justified or not, would become targets. Just like they've proven with their very first demand.

•And we will advocate for a decrease in law-enforcement spending at the local, state and federal levels and a reinvestment of that budgeted money into the black communities most devastated by poverty in order to create jobs, housing and schools. This money should be redirected to those federal departments charged with providing employment, housing and educational services.

I'm not sure how to take this one. At face value it seems to be at total odds with what they're trying to accomplish. "We want more accountability, but we want to spend less." I'll admit that I haven't put a lot of thought into this one.

So, hopefully anyone defending the BLM movement will read this, and realize just how way off they are. On that first point alone, they prove that they are wrong. On that first point alone, they show that they are a movement to be shunned.

Edited to add: Was going to post a reply, but figured I'd just add in here:
On the website, they claim

Every 28 hours a black man, woman, or child is murdered by police or vigilante law enforcement

According to killedbypolice.net, there have been 749 police killings (right or wrong) in 2015. This works out to 1 person killed every 7.7 hours. Roughly 30 percent of those killed by officers are black. This means that roughly, 1 black person is killed by an officer every 25.7 hours. Even if HALF (being very, very generous here) of those were killed in cold blood, that brings us to 1 black person murdered every 50 hours or so. So, even their numbers and statistics are biased and lies.

 

[Revmitchell]

As unfortunate as it is no one who defend the BLM movement will be moved by your work here. It is a movement based on lies, deception, and a hidden agenda. That agenda is to be able to impose federal standards on local police agencies as part of a social justice scheme. The details of Obama's plan for that can be found here.

It does nothing more than move this country to nationalizing local police. People like Al Sharpton said:

“That’s why we’re going to do this march from here to Washington. We need the Justice Department to step in and take over policing in this country,” Sharpton said."

Communists are certainly pushing this issue as can be seen here.

 

[just-want-peace]

Welcome to the CHANGE that so many of you (?) voted for in 08!
Are things going like you thought/hoped??:1_grouphug:

 

[Sapper Woody]

Did some more digging on the site. It's actually not even about "Black" lives matter, believe it or not. From the website:

Straight men, unintentionally or intentionally, have taken the work of queer Black women and erased our contributions. Perhaps if we were the charismatic Black men many are rallying around these days, it would have been a different story, but being Black queer women in this society (and apparently within these movements) tends to equal invisibility and non-relevancy.

Concerning someone who used their work:

I was even more surprised when, in the promotion of their event, one of the artists conducted an interview that completely erased the origins of their work–rooted in the labor and love of queer Black women.

Concerning their focus:

It goes beyond the narrow nationalism that can be prevalent within some Black communities, which merely call on Black people to love Black, live Black and buy Black, keeping straight cis Black men in the front of the movement while our sisters, queer and trans and disabled folk take up roles in the background or not at all.
...
It centers those that have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.
...Black queer and trans folks bearing a unique burden in a hetero-patriarchal society that disposes of us like garbage and simultaneously fetishizes us and profits off of us is state violence;

Concerning others who use their work:

In 2014, hetero-patriarchy and anti-Black racism within our movement is real and felt. It’s killing us and it’s killing our potential to build power for transformative social change. When you adopt the work of queer women of color, don’t name or recognize it, and promote it as if it has no history of its own such actions are problematic.

Does this really sound like an organization any Christian could support?

 

[Sapper Woody]

I kept reading some more, and found this little gem:

...black theology neither begins with the Western distinction of right and wrong nor the white definition of Christian and unchristian. “It begins,”as Cone explains, “by looking at the face of black America in the light of Jesus Christ.”7

It begins with Michael Brown’s bloody black body.

But should we not begin with the face of Jesus? Yes, we should. But first we must begin by recognizing that the face of Jesus Christ is the body of Michael Brown.

And

Michael Brown is no anomaly. Every 28 hours in America a black body is crucified at the hands of State executioners or some vigilante.

- I've already dealt with this lie in the first post. Now I'm using it to point out how they revere the movement. As if it is Christ Himself.

Now, there is a certain poster on here who believes in the BLM movement, but will not consider a candidate for the oval office unless they line up with Jesus. Seems to me that to avoid hypocrisy, said poster must now disavow the BLM movement.

By the way, in case there's any doubt, all these quotes I'm using in this thread are coming DIRECTLY from blacklivesmatter.com.

 

[just-want-peace]

Hate to be the one to tell you SW, but you are spinning your wheels!

 

[Zaac]

I decided to look up Black Lives Matter on Google. My goal was to see if their views matched up with what I have been hearing. I try to do that whenever possible, but it's been one of those "out of sight, out of mind" things. The ONLY time I hear about "Black Lives Matter" is on the Baptist Board. I've gone a whole school week at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock.

Ironically, I ran into a "Way of the Master" street preacher (thinking about starting another thread on that experience), but have seen absolutely nothing about Black Lives Matter. And my classes are roughly 40-50% black.

Regardless, I wanted to see what they really stood for. And now that I've been to their website, and have seen their demands, I absolutely stand against them. Where once I thought that they might be misguided, but well intentioned people, I now see the movement as something malicious.

That's one website and the wordings of one group of people. There is no official hierarchy to BLM so you're bound to get some stuff that might not sound so great as you 're dealing with a MOVEMENT, not an organization.

Let's look at their demands: (taken from their website directly)
So, in other words, they want to arrest a man who has been proven innocent. They are completely disregarding any evidence that has been brought forward, and foolishly call for "justice".

I believe you're looking at something old. That's been up for a long time.

This could, in all honesty, just be an ignorance of the facts. Looking at the numbers, there is NOT a "systemic pattern of anti-black law enforcement violence"

.

Lots of white people believe that. To black people, there has been and continues to be a systemic pattern. And telling them that the same system that is killing them and rigged to(not only allow cops to get away with murder again and again no matter what the black people say and have said) not even allow due process by trial to take place does not bode well in convincing them that white people are doing anything in all honesty.

Now, I would readily agree that we should look into the police force for violence, and they should have been held more accountable all along. But the numbers just don't add up. I've gone over all the numbers before, and we have our residents here who will disagree with me. But the evidence is there. I've looked at it as impartially as I possibly can, and came to a rational conclusion. The evidence to support systemic racism just isn't there.

Now stop being silly. You see all of the things that are now starting to pop up on video( i.e. cops shooting fleeing people in the back, or folks suddenly dead in squad cars), this isn't new.

This is stuff that people in the black communities have said for years was going on. Now they just happen to be fed up with it.

Why would anyone trust the numbers from the system that's rigged to keep police officers from being charged? Would you expect to see systemic numbers if police and DAs and judges are working together to essentially rig the system?Would you expect anything other than things being classified as a "clean shooting" when the DA who works with the officers have trained the policeman's union about what to have officers put in their reports to keep from going to trial?

This is a debate of the decade, it seems. This has nothing to do with race, and I'm not saying they're wrong, necessarily. I'm not convinced they're right, however. I'm still weighing the evidence and arguments on this one.

It has everything to do with race. White people just don't want to accept that there are a lot of racist white people in charge and running the legal system and that the system has been set up to kill and enslave black men the same way that slavery did for almost 400 years.

When the police and the DAs and the judges are all "friends" like in Ferguson and a lot of these other areas, why would anyone expect there to be due process meted out justly?

Another way to read this would be, "We want to form a lynch mob." It's pretty obvious, and obviously stupid. If the names were released, then ALL the officers, whether justified or not, would become targets. Just like they've proven with their very first demand.

Again, it's a movement, it's not an organization like some would catalog the GOP or the Black Panthers.

I'm not sure how to take this one. At face value it seems to be at total odds with what they're trying to accomplish. "We want more accountability, but we want to spend less." I'll admit that I haven't put a lot of thought into this one.

They seem to be saying that they want all those funds to militarize the police put back into black communities that they have harassed and discriminated disproportionately against.

So, hopefully anyone defending the BLM movement will read this, and realize just how way off they are. On that first point alone, they prove that they are wrong. On that first point alone, they show that they are a movement to be shunned.

Again, it's a MOVEMENT. One of the problems they have is that they aren't centralized. People saying "Black Lives Matter" don't have to adhere to what's on that board or to what their directives are.

Until there is some type of leadership hierarchy developed and an actual organization is formed to lobby to actually do things, you will continue to read a lot of stuff that is disjointed and not necessarily the way to go about doing things.

The Civil Rights movement established such a structure and they were very focused about what they were trying to accomplish. Some leaders will have to be developed or born to take the reigns and make this happen for the BLM movement also if it is to sustain itself and be fruitful.

 

[Sapper Woody]

That's one website and the wordings of one group of people. There is no official hierarchy to BLM so you're bound to get some stuff that might not sound so great as you 're dealing with a MOVEMENT, not an organization.

That's the website and the wordings of the FOUNDERS of the BLM movement. I'd say their words carry weight. It's definitely NOT "just" a website. It's the official website of the founders of the movement. I think that bears repeating a third time. It's the website and the words of the FOUNDERS.

I believe you're looking at something old. That's been up for a long time.

Could be. But the impetus is on them to keep their movement up to date if they are no longer clamoring for it.

Lots of white people believe that. To black people, there has been and continues to be a systemic pattern.

If that is their perception, then they are perceiving wrong. Flat out, no ifs, ands, or buts. I looked into it with an open mind. The evidence was not there. What they are claiming is not there. I've gone over the numbers in detail right here on this board, only to have actual data and facts dismissed in light of subjective experience.

And telling them that the same system that is killing them and rigged to(not only allow cops to get away with murder again and again no matter what the black people say and have said) not even allow due process by trial to take place does not bode well in convincing them that white people are doing anything in all honesty.

Well, it's a good thing I'm not accountable to them. I searched openly and honestly, and came to a rational conclusion devoid of any preconceived notions. Yet, now that I stand against the movement, it doesn't matter how open I was. I am considered wrong.

Now stop being silly. You see all of the things that are now starting to pop up on video( i.e. cops shooting fleeing people in the back, or folks suddenly dead in squad cars), this isn't new.

People, yes. Black people, no. That's the distinction and difference I am willing/trying to make. There have been a number of news reports lately that paint the police force in a bad light. So, yes, the police force should be policed. But not because of claims of racism, but because of claims of corruption.

This is stuff that people in the black communities have said for years was going on. Now they just happen to be fed up with it.

Why would anyone trust the numbers from the system that's rigged to keep police officers from being charged? Would you expect to see systemic numbers if police and DAs and judges are working together to essentially rig the system?Would you expect anything other than things being classified as a "clean shooting" when the DA who works with the officers have trained the policeman's union about what to have officers put in their reports to keep from going to trial?

Because the numbers I used came from ALL sources. Even the BLM sources. I used THEIR numbers. If THEIR numbers don't say what they want them to, that makes them wrong, not me for coming to the conclusion I have.

It has everything to do with race.

No, the militarization of the police force has less than nothing to do with race.

White people just don't want to accept that there are a lot of racist white people in charge and running the legal system and that the system has been set up to kill and enslave black men the same way that slavery did for almost 400 years.

And these are the kind of emotional statements that are being said. Yet I can't find a single source that actually proves this. And no one has been able to provide a source that proves this. Any source I've found has just led to another source which made the claim without any source.

Again, it's a movement, it's not an organization like some would catalog the GOP or the Black Panthers.

And again, these are the FOUNDERS talking.

They seem to be saying that they want all those funds to militarize the police put back into black communities that they have harassed and discriminated disproportionately against.

Even in this statement, you added to what they said. You are, in some ways, even more radical than they are. They didn't say anything in that sentence about discrimination or harassment. They said "most devastated by poverty".

Again, it's a MOVEMENT. One of the problems they have is that they aren't centralized. People saying "Black Lives Matter" don't have to adhere to what's on that board or to what their directives are.

And once yet again, this is the official website of the FOUNDERS of the movement.

Zaac, I honestly and dumbfounded how you can even think of aligning with this group. After everything you've said about how we shouldn't align ourselves with politicians because of their religious beliefs (shouldn't vote for a Mormon), you align yourself with a movement in which one of the three founders describes herself as "a queer black woman". Outside of that, the blatant blasphemy of equating a criminal with our Savior; do you honestly not see what you are doing? It's not ok to vote for a man because he doesn't hold to the proper theology, but it's ok to align with a group founded by a "queer", and who openly blaspheme? That's some "out there" thinking.

Edited to add:
Zaac, I am going to PM you in the next couple of days. I want to give you a chance to convince me that there is indeed a systemic racism inherent in "the system". I will never, ever align with the unGodly and blasphemous group "Black Lives Matter". But I'll give you a chance (in PM so others can't interrupt) to lay out your evidence so that I can examine it.

 

[poncho]

People, yes. Black people, no. That's the distinction and difference I am willing/trying to make. There have been a number of news reports lately that paint the police force in a bad light. So, yes, the police force should be policed. But not because of claims of racism, but because of claims of corruption.

Exactly my point. Thank you Sapper.

BTW, it's not the reports that paint the police in a bad light. It's bad/corrupt cops that paint the police in a bad light.

 

[Zaac]

That's the website and the wordings of the FOUNDERS of the BLM movement. I'd say their words carry weight. It's definitely NOT "just" a website. It's the official website of the founders of the movement. I think that bears repeating a third time. It's the website and the words of the FOUNDERS.

No. It's the wordings and website of someone who created a hashtag. They didn't start the movement. They created a hashtag.

Could be. But the impetus is on them to keep their movement up to date if they are no longer clamoring for it.

Again, you're confusing the musings of someone who created a hashtag with someone who is the voice of the movement. The movement is bigger than what the hashtag creators were trying to do. And they frankly don't know what they are doing. It's not up to date because they don't know how to lead and establish structure and purpose.

If that is their perception, then they are perceiving wrong.

Again, this is part of the problem. How are you or any other white person gonna tell them that their perception is wrong when they are the ones who have been living it?

Flat out, no ifs, ands, or buts. I looked into it with an open mind. The evidence was not there. What they are claiming is not there. I've gone over the numbers in detail right here on this board, only to have actual data and facts dismissed in light of subjective experience.

Did you read anything that I wrote in the other response? Why do you expect to find evidence in a rigged system controlled by the same people Blacks have said are systemically doing these things?

That's like saying I'm gonna check with Catholic priests to see if there is a record of sexual abuse . Would you expect individuals to be keeping records of how they molested little boys so that someone like you could check the "evidence"?

The system is rigged to avoid due process for the black victims so what evidence did you think you were gonna find?

Well, it's a good thing I'm not accountable to them. I searched openly and honestly, and came to a rational conclusion devoid of any preconceived notions. Yet, now that I stand against the movement, it doesn't matter how open I was. I am considered wrong.

See the above. If you are discriminately killing folks and the DA and judge are working with you to avoid due process, what sort of evidence were you expecting to openly and honestly find?

People, yes. Black people, no. That's the distinction and difference I am willing/trying to make. There have been a number of news reports lately that paint the police force in a bad light. So, yes, the police force should be policed. But not because of claims of racism, but because of claims of corruption.

Then you deal with corruption. The black community sees race because they are the ones being killed,unarmed, by the police. Not white men. Not white women. But Black men and women.

I don't see why this concept is so difficult.

Because the numbers I used came from ALL sources. Even the BLM sources. I used THEIR numbers. If THEIR numbers don't say what they want them to, that makes them wrong, not me for coming to the conclusion I have.

Sources that have for decades played a part in rigging the system. You keep going on about the lack of evidence you found for this systemic behavior. The information that BLM presented and that you looked at are from the system that's doing the killing.

If you want to know the truth, go to some black communities around the country and ask them what cops have been doing for decades and getting away with? See if that aligns with your unfound evidence. It won't.

No, the militarization of the police force has less than nothing to do with race.

Perhaps. But I don't think the black community has seen the militarized police going up against white civilians.

And these are the kind of emotional statements that are being said. Yet I can't find a single source that actually proves this. And no one has been able to provide a source that proves this. Any source I've found has just led to another source which made the claim without any source.

Then you're choosing to listen to what the people who are rigging the system are saying while ignoring the folks being victimized.

And again, these are the FOUNDERS talking.

They founded a hashtag. They didn't found a movement.

Even in this statement, you added to what they said. You are, in some ways, even more radical than they are. They didn't say anything in that sentence about discrimination or harassment. They said "most devastated by poverty".

You asked. I was just trying to explain to you what they were saying because you apparently didn't get it. And you just think I'm radical because I don't have a problem calling a spade a spade.

And once yet again, this is the official website of the FOUNDERS of the movement.

And once again, this is the official website of the founders of a hashtag.

Zaac, I honestly and dumbfounded how you can even think of aligning with this group.

??? Are you okay? Where have I said anything about being aligned with them?

After everything you've said about how we shouldn't align ourselves with politicians because of their religious beliefs (shouldn't vote for a Mormon), you align yourself with a movement in which one of the three founders describes herself as "a queer black woman".

I'm confused right now as to why you would even be telling this lie. I make it a point to NOT align myself with organizations. And there is nowhere in my comments where that changed.

Outside of that, the blatant blasphemy of equating a criminal with our Savior; do you honestly not see what you are doing? It's not ok to vote for a man because he doesn't hold to the proper theology, but it's ok to align with a group founded by a "queer", and who openly blaspheme? That's some "out there" thinking.

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about as far as being "aligned" with them.

Edited to add:
Zaac, I am going to PM you in the next couple of days. I want to give you a chance to convince me that there is indeed a systemic racism inherent in "the system". I will never, ever align with the unGodly and blasphemous group "Black Lives Matter". But I'll give you a chance (in PM so others can't interrupt) to lay out your evidence so that I can examine it.

Again Sapper, what are you talking about? Who said anything about aligning with them?

 

[Sapper Woody]

One of my core classes at UALR is "Ethics and Society". Our assigned reading this week was Erin Gilson's "Vulnerability, Ignorance, and Oppression" Read it here. In the essay, the author speaks of how to try and maintain the appearance of invulnerability is to actually maintain a state of willful ignorance. She uses several examples, one of which is black oppression in America. I had a lengthy discussion with my professor about this subject matter on Friday. I maintained that in her desire to remain open (vulnerable), and therefor not ignorant, she has swung the pendulum so far as to become gullible.

But that's not the main point here. She says that to deny black oppression in America is to remain willfully ignorant of it, and therefor to seek out an invulnerability to the affects that acknowledging it would have.

What I am saying, is that I have no vested interest in denying black oppression. In fact, quite the opposite. If there is a problem, we'd be wise to fix it, and therefor make America a better, safer place to live for not only blacks, but for every other ethnicity living within her borders.

We all agree what the symptoms are. The symptoms are that while black Americans only account for 17% of the population, they account for roughly 30% of the violent crime, and 37% of the prison population. (As any statistician can tell you, raw numbers mean absolutely nothing. It is comparison and contrast with amounts, or per capita that has meaning.)

Now, we agree that there is a problem. With blacks being only 17% of the population, they should only account for ~17% of violent crimes and the prison population. This is the major symptom.

Where the disagreement comes in, is the source of the symptom. The BLM movement believes this comes from systemic racism, a desire of "the man" to keep them down. I ask openly, what would be the point? Why would any society wish to have a subgroup leeching off of it, rather than contributing to it?

However, any attempt at saying something along the lines of suggesting personal accountability is met with irrational shouts of "racist!". Or it is met with the counterproductive, "The white man should take personal accountability of slavery, and it's after affects."

When it really comes down to it, humans have to make choices all the time. When a man (black, white, or other) fathers an illegitimate child, he made a choice to do so. When a man decides to not marry the mother of his child, he made a choice not to do so. When a man decides to steal, deal drugs, become a pimp, or any other illegal activity, he made a choice to do so.

On the flip side, supposing my ancestors owned slaves (which they didn't, but for the sake of argument, let's say they did). I did not choose to be the descendant of a slave owner. And that's really what it boils down to.

What should I be personally accountable for? For the fact that I was once homeless? (For a short time, only about 2-3 weeks before I "came to my senses", and returned to my father's house.) For the fact that I hit the bottom of the barrel and had to work my way up? For the fact that for my whole life up until I joined the Army I had to work minimum wage jobs, and my wife had to work to help support us? (When I joined the Army as an E1, I was literally making more money at that low wage than my wife and I had ever made combined.)

I'm doing pretty well now, being a full time student and medically retired from the Army. But where was this "white privilege" when I had to go to friends and ask for some food? When I slept in my pickup truck?

When I sunk so low I, too, could have decided to turn to criminal activity to support myself. But I made a conscious decision not to.

My point is, if the BLM crowd can pull on experience rather than facts and create a whole movement, why can't I pull on my experience to deny it?

What they have is emotionalism, and an inarguable accusation, which in and of itself is a logical fallacy. There is no way to "prove" that you aren't a racist, if someone accuses you of it. Any attempts at trying to prove that you aren't is simply seen as more racism. I could sit here all day and spout of reasons why I don't believe I'm a racist, and all I would get in response is "and that's why you're a racist." This movement isn't about equality. It's about power.

I challenge anyone to name one thing that I can do as a white man that is denied to a black man.

Now, I will readily admit that racism exists in both white and black people on an individual level. I've seen it firsthand. I've seen white people get uneasy around a black man (and I have to chuckle, because my experience in the Army had black men (and one black woman) over me all the time). I've heard a white man say, "Them **** N****", and mean it. So, it exists on an individual level.

However, the claim that it exists on a systemic level is unwarranted. The only evidence is experiential, yet anyone else's experiences are rejected.

The problem is not white versus black. If anything, it is rich versus poor, entitled versus blue collar. But this is America. With the BLM movement, they won't allow it to not be about race. They inject it into everything.

I went from homeless, to an apartment with a bedroom, kitchen, bathroom and small living room. From there to a slightly larger apartment with those same rooms. To joining the Army, to combat, to getting medically retired, to owning a 3 bedroom, 2 story house. But when I try to use that as an inspirational story, the BLM movement wants to turn it into "that's because you're white". Again, it's an irrational argument with no response allowed.

So, once again, I am open to any evidence to the contrary of what I am saying. If it is there, someone show it to me. I have not seen it. I have not experienced it. I have not been able to find any shred of evidence that says that this is the way things are. And it's not for lack of looking.

 

[Zaac]

One...

What I am saying, is that I have no vested interest in denying black oppression. I....

Sapper, no one can help you with this except Jesus Christ Himself. Like so may white people, you refuse to acknowledge the wickedness right before your eyes being perpetrated upon black people by white people in power.

And yes, it is willful ignorance because to acknowledge that there is a systemic racism that causes Blacks to be treated differently by the white teachers who predominantly teach them, by the white school administrators who predominantly discipline them and categorize them, by the predominantly white run colleges that might grant them admission, by the predominantly white run job market that might hire them, by the predominantly white run police forces that profile based upon what predominantly white run media describe them to be, by the DAs working with predominantly white police forces and predominantly white judges who all bypass the due process and evade trials, it's flat out crazy and borderline sad that you and others can willfully deny that, and somehow fix your mouths to say that there isn't systemic racism against Blacks.

There IS a problem. You don't want to acknowledge that there is a problem because the evidence of the rigged system that is the problem isn't convincing you.

Gosh you think black folks just like getting killed by police officers?You think black folks just like being locked up more than their white counterparts who commit the same crimes but somehow don't get placed into the system?

Yes we'd be wise to fix it. But again, being willfully ignorant of the problem that Black folks have said for decades exists, while folks like you continue to deny it, says that you're just typing words and don't care anything about what they are saying is their reality.

That's consistent with what Blacks have heard from a lot of white people in America. That's how Black Lives Matters was born.

Because as you've demonstrated, the Black Lives don't matter enough to you and a lot of white people to allow you to see past the blind spot that Black people can attest to what is being done to them and what has been done to them far better than the folks who rig the system to make it look like there was justice because the police officer feared for his life.

We all agree . ...

Again, we're going in circles here. When you've got white people rigging the system and then getting rich off the prison system that they have created, who exactly would you think they would put in those jails disproportionately?

And you can stop with the per capita stuff. That's just a lame white man's trick to make it look like black people are more violent than white people.

If some of yall and the police were so concerned about the violent crime, then there would be extra policing of the folks who commit far more violent crimes.

THIS is why white people like to talk about the per capita stuff because it takes the spotlight off the fact that police are more heavily pursuing Blacks because of this false "more violent" per capita narrative that white men have created.

One might add that if the police were policing the folks who were committing far more violent crimes than Blacks at the same rates that they do Blacks that the 30% number would not be what it is.

Now, we agree that there is a problem. ...

Do you understand discrimination? When folks are focused on you ad not someone else, they are gonna see what you're doing while ignoring the somebody else. So yes the 30% rate is a symptom of the very systemic racism that you say there is no evidence to be found.

Where the disagreement comes in, is the source of the symptom. ...

Stop being obtuse. Who is leeching?They are being placed in jail and enslaved as black people were doing slavery. What was the point of slavery?

However, any attempt at saying something along the lines of suggesting personal accountability ...

Your willful ignorance doesn't necessarily have anything to do with racism. It does however show (and I know you don't like this term) a white privileged perspective on why you think Blacks are being locked up more than Whites.

When it really comes down to it, humans have to make choices all the time. ...

Nobody negates any of that. But when the system polices them differently based upon skin color, it's noticeable. And right now, it's very noticeable.

On the flip side, supposing my ancestors owned slaves (which they didn't, but for the sake of argument, let's say they did)...

So. It hasn't stopped you or anybody else from living a life that has been vastly superior to that of the average black person economically based upon accumulated and passed on wealth and opportunities that were built on the backs of slaves.

What should I be personally accountable for? ...

But despite all that, you are still in a better position societally than the average black man. But this is irrelevant.

I'm doing pretty well now, ...

White privilege allowed you to be able to go ask friends who could help. Economics has often times robbed black people of that ability. So what do you do when no one you know has any food and you're all hungry? What do you do when there is no truck to sleep in?

But again, this is irrelevant.

When I sunk so low I, too, could have decided to turn to criminal activity to support myself. But I made a conscious decision not to.

Maybe, again, because of economics, you had options a lot of them do not. It's like folks asking why so many Backs spend time in jail while their white counterparts bond out? Well when your friends and family are as economically disadvantaged as you are, there is no house or collateral or savings account upon which to rely so the white people go home and the black people go to jail.

Or when you can pay for an attorney but the black person has to use the public defender who really isn't trying to do anything but get the case out the way?

If you're white, you're privileged in ways you haven't even considered regardless of those past circumstances. you STILL had options. The average black person just doesn't.

My point is, if the BLM crowd can pull on experience rather than facts and create a whole movement, why can't I pull on my experience to deny it?

You and a large part of white people have been denying it since the 50s because to not deny it, would mean that you'd have to admit that somebody was doing what they said. well lo and behold cell phones arrive and the videos are showing that what is being doe repeatedly is exactly what Black folks have said for darn near 70 years now.

But STILL, just like after the church in Birmingham was bombed, STILL folks like you willfully ignore the truth.

What they have is emotionalism, and an inarguable accusation, which in and of itself is a logical fallacy. ...

Gosh I don't care about them calling folks racists. There is something in the heart of men that's just extremely wicked to be able to sit back and look at this type of injustice and try to deny it, and then get upset because the people who are seeing folks who look like them get killed again and again and again get upset.

This movement isn't about equality. It's about power.

Of course it's about power. The white people in many jurisdictions have the power because they have the numbers and that's why there hasn't been any equality economically or judicially. People aren't gonna treat you equally unless someone who wields some power forces them to do so.

That's one of the issues the right has with Barack Obama. He's been messing with the power structure.

I challenge anyone to name one thing that I can do as a white man that is denied to a black man.

You can dismiss the reality of Black people as irrelevant or "unevidenced" and white people will 9 times out of 10 agree with you.

White people have gotten really good at marginalizing black people and their experiences.

Now, I will readily admit that racism exists in both white and black people on an individual level. ...

That's NOT racism.

However, the claim that it exists on a systemic level is unwarranted. The only evidence is experiential, yet anyone else's experiences are rejected.

Again, how does white America think it can tell the people who are having these things done to THEM that it's unwarranted?

There's that white privilege again because you and a lot of white America feel as though if it ain't YOUR reality, then there's no possible way that there could be any truth to it. And you immediately think that the experiences which you marginalized of the black people can't possibly be the truth.

The problem is not white versus black. ....

Nope. Try as much as you and a lot of white folks will, it's white vs black. Try as much as yall will to not talk about it, to not deal with it, to scream race baiter about anyone who will, it is about race.

A lot of white America just isn't ready to deal with it.

I went from homeless,... ...[/B].

That's because that's YOUR experience. That happens all the time for white people. The black experience doesn't often follow that script of going from homeless to middle class for a lot of reasons better left to another thread.

So, once again, I am open to any evidence to the contrary of what I am saying. ...

You keep saying that as though you're trying to convince yourself that you're open to it. You're not as you've totally dismissed the reality of black people as evidence.

 

[Sapper Woody]

You keep saying that as though you're trying to convince yourself that you're open to it. You're not as you've totally dismissed the reality of black people as evidence.

I don't have the time right now to respond to your whole post, though hopefully I will have time later. But I wanted to respond to this part while I do have time.

This part is essentially what I've been saying. It's not ok for me to dismiss their "reality", but it's perfectly acceptable for them to dismiss mine? There has to be a meeting of the minds for any conflict to be resolved. The only other outcome in a conflict is complete domination of one party or the other.

Let's say that I represent the white ethnicity, and you represent the black. In our exchange, I'm saying "You've given your experience, so I'll give mine." You respond by saying, "Your experience is irrelevant." So I have absolutely no recourse, but to say the same about your experience. There's no meeting of the minds.

So, I say, "Since you won't allow for an exchange of experiences, and both of us looking at the other's experience, my only recourse is to look at numbers, facts, and data."

You respond with, "No, your data is rigged."

How am I supposed to respond to that? "Okay, well, since the only evidence you will accept is your experience, I'm going to dismiss you altogether, since anything except total submission to your view is inadequate in your eyes."

That's essentially what's going on here. I'm trying to be open to discussion, while you're not. It's either completely acquiesce, or nothing. How am I supposed to take an argument seriously if I can't even talk about it?

 

[Rolfe]

I am of the mind that Sapper Woody is one of this site's most thoughtful and insightful posters. That notion has been reinforced with this thread.

 

[Zaac]

I don't have the time right now to respond to your whole post, though hopefully I will have time later. But I wanted to respond to this part while I do have time.

This part is essentially what I've been saying. It's not ok for me to dismiss their "reality", but it's perfectly acceptable for them to dismiss mine? There has to be a meeting of the minds for any conflict to be resolved. The only other outcome in a conflict is complete domination of one party or the other.

And right here again is where you refuse to listen ironically. It's your reality that's been accepted during Jim Crow and now by the masses of folks who call themselves Christians. There will be and can be no meeting of the minds because, like you, the white people in the majority will continue to marginalize and dismiss anything that black people say because it's not YOUR reality.

They dismiss yours because YOURS isn't the truth that they are living day to day. They dismiss yours because people who have said the same things as you have dismissed theirs for over 400 years in this country. I don't know how better to explain it to you. White people run everything in this country and always have. You want a meeting of the minds, for what? So that you can reinforce that the white people in power don't care what the black people are experiencing? Or so that it can once again be dismissed as though nothing is happening?

Let's say that I represent the white ethnicity, and you represent the black.

Nope.But I'll play anyway.

In our exchange, I'm saying "You've given your experience, so I'll give mine." You respond by saying, "Your experience is irrelevant." So I have absolutely no recourse, but to say the same about your experience. There's no meeting of the minds.

That's fine. But that is NOT how the exchange took place.

A more accurate display of the exchange was:

They told you what their experience is.
You dismissed it because your experience didn't show you any evidence that you believed "warranted' their reaction.

Right here is why you and those like you will never get anywhere with black people. You're dismissive of what they say and white folks have in large part been dismissive of what they say for 400 years in this country. But then you wonder why there can't be a meeting of the minds when you continue the same pattern of marginalization that's taken place in this country for 400 years.
You even went so far as to make it look as though I was aligning with them.

So, I say, "Since you won't allow for an exchange of experiences, and both of us looking at the other's experience, my only recourse is to look at numbers, facts, and data."

You're being dishonest. You dismissed what they said from the start because YOU haven't seen any evidence.

You haven't asked for an exchange of experiences. The White privilege you displayed said to Blacks I'm gonna tell you what your experience is because you obviously don't know any better than to believe you're experiencing one thing when you're not.

You respond with, "No, your data is rigged."

Your data is rigged. If the system is systemically racist and discriminatory towards Blacks in its practices, what is your data gonna show other than what the folks who rigged the system towards Blacks want it to show?

How am I supposed to respond to that? "Okay, well, since the only evidence you will accept is your experience, I'm going to dismiss you altogether, since anything except total submission to your view is inadequate in your eyes."

You should accept it in the same way that you started your dismissive approach to what they said as just an "ignorance of the facts".

You IMMEDIATELY dismissed and attempted to marginalize what they said, but now you wonder why what you said is summarily dismissed as irrelevant?

You did what white folks have been doing for 400 years and then tried to flip as though they were being dismissive of your experience when it is YOU who immediately dismissed theirs.

That's essentially what's going on here. I'm trying to be open to discussion, while you're not. It's either completely acquiesce, or nothing. How am I supposed to take an argument seriously if I can't even talk about it?

Again, just stop. You were dismissive from the start so I don't see why you keep trying to make it look like you were open to a discussion of what they said when you IMMEDIATELY claimed they were malicious and perhaps just ignorant of the facts.

 

[Zaac]

I am of the mind that Sapper Woody is one of this site's most thoughtful and insightful posters. That notion has been reinforced with this thread.

He is indeed. But that doesn't negate that he has done the same thing with what folks in the BLM movement have said as white folks have done to Blacks since they were brought to this country. And that is marginalize them and anything they say as less important or less true than what the white man is saying.

And I think people are so used to doing that , that often times they don't even realize what they are doing.

 

[Revmitchell]

There is only one reality and one truth. There are however, many perceptions. Neither are the same thing. Blacks are not in fact being murdered by police any more than anyone else. It is being presented that way because of the push for social justice. Social Justice if a communist agenda to push for change away from capitalism and toward socialism.

There is no doubt that some believe what is being perpetrated as police brutatlity. These are low information citizens willing to be stirred up and used as pawns by the BLM and guys like Sorros.

I have news for them all. They are not getting a dime from white people. We are not going to make anything easier for anyone. Live with it. If you want to succeed then work hard, do what is necessary to get ahead, make sacrifices to do it, and stop whinning. The only thing the BLM is doing is making people mad. That will not work out well for them.

 

[Rolfe]

He is indeed. But that doesn't negate that he has done the same thing with what folks in the BLM movement have said as white folks have done to Blacks since they were brought to this country. And that is marginalize them and anything they say as less important or less true than what the white man is saying.

And I think people are so used to doing that , that often times they don't even realize what they are doing.

I do not, after reviewing his posts in this thread, see any evidence of that which you accuse him of. You have no foot to stand on, and are grabbing at straws to support your case.

Sapper Woody has bested your claim with his observation.

 

[Zaac]

I do not, after reviewing his posts in this thread, see any evidence of that which you accuse him of. You have no foot to stand on, and are grabbing at straws to support your case.

.

Of course you don't . :laugh:

i pointed out exactly what he did and you don't WANT to see it. It's the willful ignorance of which Sapper spoke.

And I say again, this is what white people specifically have done with what black people have said for 400 years.

And like you're doing right now, the other white people come along and pat each other on the back and say to Sapper, I agree with you. There's no way you were doing what they say you were doing. So you're right and they are wrong.


Gosh you just perfectly illustrated what I said about how the system is rigged. One white person supports what the other white person says or does and it becomes the accepted truth, and what the Black person would have said, is dismissed.

That's EXACTLY how Blacks are treated in a judicial system that is rigged against them.

But when the powers that be are AMENing each other, nothing the black person says is believed.

Sapper Woody has bested your claim with his observation

He hasn't bested anything. You're just perfectly illustrating how white people collectively come together to dismiss what Black people have said in the past. And like what you attempted to do, white folks in power in the judicial system do all the time.

DAs train policemen what to put in their reports to escape prosecution because they work together. The system is rigged and you again perfectly illustrated how.

 

[Rolfe]

Of course you don't . :laugh:

i pointed out exactly what he did and you don't WANT to see it. It's the willful ignorance of which Sapper spoke.

No, you choose to ignore the fact that not every white person is not a racist. You categorically accuse others based on skin color. You are prejudiced. You are guilty of the sin that you claim to crusade against.

SNIP