Blood Sacrifices in the MK?

[skypair]

This is kind of an "open issue" between me and preterists...

But consider: In the OT, Israel was under the law which commanded physical sacrifices of believers.

Today, the only ones "under the law" are SPIRITUALLY so. That is, there are no blood sacrifices, to be sure. If you are lost, you are spiritually "under that law" to obey and only relieved of the law spiritually through the sacrifice of Christ. And we KNOW these truths because we accept the SPIRITUAL, not physical, presence of the kingdom we live in today!

My point is that if the MK is of Israel reigning with Christ on earth, it makes sense that the unsaved would have to sacrifice under the old "law" system, no? Those sacrifices NEVER took away sin anyway but ALWAYS represented what Christ would do or had done, right?

I guess I would say that, dispensationally, if there is to be a physical kingdom of Christ on earth, I would suspect that all the physical features of the original system to which He came would be reinstituted. And, indeed, they went out in 70 AD as Paul predicted (in Heb 8:13 -- about 65 AD) that they were "ready to VANISH away." And they will be "restored" with "all things" during the tribulation that precedes the MK JESUS HIMSELF even building the MK temple that follows!

skypair

 

[Cutter]

Today, the only ones "under the law" are SPIRITUALLY so. That is, there are no blood sacrifices, to be sure. If you are lost, you are spiritually "under that law" to obey and only relieved of the law spiritually through the sacrifice of Christ. And we KNOW these truths because we accept the SPIRITUAL, not physical, presence of the kingdom we live in today!

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes and the way you've strung this all to together.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I guess I would say that, dispensationally, if there is to be a physical kingdom of Christ on earth, I would suspect that all the physical features of the original system to which He came would be reinstituted. And, indeed, they went out in 70 AD as Paul predicted (in Heb 8:13 -- about 65 AD) that they were "ready to VANISH away." And they will be "restored" with "all things" during the tribulation that precedes the MK JESUS HIMSELF even building the MK temple that follows!

Why? Will Christ's sacrifice not be as sufficient during the MK as it is now?

 

[canadyjd]

I don't agree with your premise that the Jews will have an earthly kingdom, separate from Christian believers. Such a thing would undo the work of Christ on the cross, which made both Jews and Gentiles one corporate body of Christ, visible in the church.

Ephesians 2:14+ "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

Both Jews and Gentiles now form one group in Christ.

(15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, establishing peace,

The Old Testament Law has been abolished in its fulfillment in the person of Christ. The result is that both groups are now "one new man", later identified as the body of Christ, the church.

(16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.....

The Old Testament Law, which was a source of strife between Jews and Gentiles, has been put to death by Christ's death on the cross. By doing so, reconcilation has come to both groups.

(18)for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father."

All men, represented by both groups (Jews and Gentiles) now have access to the Father through Christ, not through the Law.

If the sacraficial system is re-established, Christ would be re-establishing the emnity between Jew and Gentile. Christ would be dividing His own body, the church. Christ would be re-creating hostility between Jews and Gentiles. Christ would be undoing what He accomplished on the cross.

Your theory cannot be supported by a careful study of scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

[Grasshopper]

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes and the way you've strung this all to together.

skypair tried to make the case that the MK was described in Eze. 40-48. When I pointed out that there were sin atoning sacrifices described in Eze. 40-48 he said they were not for atonement but were "memorial sacrifices"(common dispie view). When challenged to point out in the passage where the sacrifices were for a memorium and not for atonement he was unable to provide a single verse. Thus we have a new thread trying to explain why God would have His people go back to the types and shadows of the Old Covenant. What becomes of Christ's once and for all blood sacrifice during this "MK" who knows? I never recieved an answer on that either.

Read all about it here: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=49687

 

[skypair]

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following your thought processes and the way you've strung this all to together.

Cutter -- Menagerie,

The thought is that we live today in a SPIRITUAL kingdom. Many here (grasshooper, BroBob) insist that we live in THE MK when, in fact, that is future.

The reason we don't "do" blood sacrifices today is not because Christ has died for sins. He died for all sins of all generations. The reason we don't "do" blood sacrifices is because this kingdom is spiritual, not physical/literal kingdom of Messiah. And there will be a physical/literal kingdom of Messiah on earth. it will be a "continuation" of the old covenant that was "sealed" by blood REPRESENTATIVE of Christ.

Does that help? We won't be here but, nonetheless, it will come in the FUTURE.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I don't agree with your premise that the Jews will have an earthly kingdom, separate from Christian believers. Such a thing would undo the work of Christ on the cross, which made both Jews and Gentiles one corporate body of Christ, visible in the church.

Cutter, Menagerie -- see what I mean now?

It "undoes" NOTHING. It literalizes" scripture (Ezek 40-48) AND reestablishes the "kingdom" of law except that the Object of that law -- to draw us to salvation -- is also present.

Ephesians 2:14+ "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

Both Jews and Gentiles now form one group in Christ.

Yes, I understand that, jd. But one of those "groups," the CHURCH, is to be taken OUT! What do you have left? OT ISRAEL -- the "remnant" thereof anyway.

The Old Testament Law has been abolished in its fulfillment in the person of Christ.

No, the Old Testament has not come to its conclusion. It has not fulfilled its promises. You are denying the promises given to Israel in that OT Israel was separate (another "fold") from the church.

God does NOT break His promises! So where do you see Israel as obtaining the "land" promised to Abraham as a "forever" inheritance??? Are YOU going to "stake your claim" as one of the tribes of Israel to the "land," Ezek 47-48?? Will you even be on earth when the land is "parcelled out" to teh tribes of Israel?

The Old Testament Law, which was a source of strife between Jews and Gentiles, has been put to death by Christ's death on the cross.

"Put to death" for NOW. Do you even pretend to notice that racial, religious, and national Israel are being restored in the "land" now EXACTLY as Ezek 36, etal, says THEY would? Are you feeling a "tugging" of the Holy Spirit for you to go back and settle there? :laugh: If you do, you are not consulting your "dance card!" :laugh: Christ is about to invite us to "dance" with Him in heaven and here you are expecting to inherit an earthly kingdom!

If the sacraficial system is re-established, Christ would be re-establishing the emnity between Jew and Gentile.

Yes! Amen! First AntiChrist will take all the churches (the "one world church") and ATTACK Israel. And in the MK. the lost will surely know that they are lost if they won't come to Jerusalem and offer sacrifices!

Christ would be dividing His own body, the church.

The church isn't going to be here, jd. LAW is reinstated literally and physically after the RAPTURE of the church. ISRAEL is NOT the body of Christ! What follows is the 70th week of Daniel, jd, followed by the kingdom of Messiah promised to ISRAEL. Are you Israel or are you church, jd?

Christ would be re-creating hostility between Jews and Gentiles. Christ would be undoing what He accomplished on the cross.

YES! Do you think AntiChrist is going to "cozy" up to Israel? Not for long! Midtrib he even sets his own image up in their "holy place!"

Your theory cannot be supported by a careful study of scripture.

Not by YOUR "careful study of scripture" anyway! :laugh: How careful are you?? Do you acknowledge the rapture of the church? the tribulation? the Millenial Kingdom of Christ? What about The Revelation -- fiction or non-fiction??

skypair

 

[skypair]

Thus we have a new thread trying to explain why God would have His people go back to the types and shadows of the Old Covenant.

And it is because the world will be under the LAW dispensation again -- LAW with GRACE -- Jew with Gentile literally and physically under the temporal authority of Christ!

Let's examine it -- the "law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ," right? So suppose the law was re-implemented with blood sacrifices. It would still serve that purpose, wouldn't it? People would still realize that those sacrifices were to no avail unless there was faith in Christ. The world would be "without excuse" having neither offered the sacrifices nor believed (such as wouldn't).

Do you eat lamb, gh? The sacrifice -- much of it -- is eaten by those who minister. Only the blood is offered to God. Do you tithe, gh? Same-same. You give to the church for the advancement of the gospel. The priests according to "Zadok" will thank you.

skypair

 

[KenH]

It would still serve that purpose, wouldn't it?

No. After Christ Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross, we have the Lord's Supper to do that.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, I understand that, jd. But one of those "groups," the CHURCH, is to be taken OUT! What do you have left? OT ISRAEL -- the "remnant" thereof anyway.

You have missed the point. There are no longer two groups, Jew and Gentile. There is only one group ...Christian ... represented in the ONE church. The Jews will be grafted back into the ONE olive tree.

Again, I notice you cannot bring yourself to actually engage scripture and explain why it doesn't plainly contradict your theory.

No, the Old Testament has not come to its conclusion. It has not fulfilled its promises.

Yes, they have already been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Yes! Amen!

I am stunned that you would "amen" the statement that for your theory to be true, Jesus Christ would have to "undo" His work on the cross, re-creating hostility, split His church apart (His very own body) and put people back under the sacrificial system. Very sad that you can believe it.

Do you acknowledge the rapture of the church?

Of course, it is clearly taught in scripture as occuring just after the tribulation.

the tribulation?

Of course, it is clearly taught in scripture as occuring prior to the 2nd coming of Christ; the Day of the Lord.

the Millenial Kingdom of Christ?

It is highly debatable whether the MK is a literal 1000 year reign on earth, or simply symbolic of a never ending Kingdom that is part of a new heaven and a new earth.

peace to youraying:

 

[Brother Bob]

And it is because the world will be under the LAW dispensation again -- LAW with GRACE -- Jew with Gentile literally and physically under the temporal authority of Christ!

Let's examine it -- the "law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ," right? So suppose the law was re-implemented with blood sacrifices. It would still serve that purpose, wouldn't it? People would still realize that those sacrifices were to no avail unless there was faith in Christ. The world would be "without excuse" having neither offered the sacrifices nor believed (such as wouldn't).

Do you eat lamb, gh? The sacrifice -- much of it -- is eaten by those who minister. Only the blood is offered to God. Do you tithe, gh? Same-same. You give to the church for the advancement of the gospel. The priests according to "Zadok" will thank you.

skypair

You either accept the "new" covenant, or you don't. You can not tear it up in little peices. Scripture is so plain that God took the twain and made them one. Sorry about your Jewish friends that don't repent before death, but It belongs to God and we all have to follow His word.

BBob,

 

[Amy.G]

I admit that I am sorely lacking in knowledge of eschatology, which is why I do not engage in those type discussions, but this one seems a little strange to me.
Why would God reinstate the sacrificial system when Christ has fulfilled all the law? Is it not "finished"? Wouldn't it's reinstatement mean that God has nullified Christ's sacrifice?
This doesn't make sense to me.


Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


The law has been fulfilled and nailed to the cross. Am I wrong??

 

[skypair]

No. After Christ Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross, we have the Lord's Supper to do that.

But again, you are talking about the church when, in fact, the MK belongs to ISRAEL.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You have missed the point. There are no longer two groups, Jew and Gentile. There is only one group ...Christian ... represented in the ONE church. The Jews will be grafted back into the ONE olive tree.

And you have missed the further point -- there will be 2 groups again after we, the church, get raptured. In fact, in the ages to come, Israel will NEVER live in NJ and the church will NEVER live in the New Earth. We will visit each other -- in fact, they will have to come into NJ to see God! We will be alike in every respect except that real estate imperative -- "location, location, location." :laugh:

Of course, it is clearly taught in scripture as occuring just after the tribulation.

Agreed. Amen! But "that day" has not even begun yet!

Of course, it is clearly taught in scripture as occuring prior to the 2nd coming of Christ; the Day of the Lord.

Negative. Shame! The MK begins when Christ returns to set it up at the end of the tribulation. You are making the MK SPRITUAL in every respect but the Bible says it is LITERAL in every respect! Just as it is only spiritually that we are under the law until we are saved, we are only spiritually in the kingdom after we are saved.

That is all different in the MK. Literally they will be under the law and literally they will be saved from physical death if they believe.

skypair

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Cannot you understand what Jesus said, "It is FINISHED" - John 19:30. He ended the daily sacrifices. At the same time, when his soul yielded up, the veil of the temple was torn down from top to bottom - Matt. 27:51.

Christ finished daily sacrifices and atonement. We do not need earthly animal sacrifices anymore. Because, Christ is our perfect sacrifice. We are the high priests, we have the rights to ask Christ for forgive our sins daily 24 hours anytime.

We do not have to look down upon earthly things like go out and to looking for find a pure lamb, then make offering to God. We have to look up at Jesus, he is the Finisher and the eternality perfect sacrifice.

When Jesus shall come, all people include Jews will looking at Jesus in person. Every person shall bow down before Christ, and shall confess that He is the Lord - Phil. 2:9-11. They will not go out and looking for a lamb anywhere outside to make offering or atonement to God. Jesus IS the Lamb that, we need Him. Just looking up at Jesus.

That why Jews are failed for being realize that Jesus is the Messiah and the perfect sacrifice. They still looking down on earthly things and still practical animal sacrifices toward their God daily today. They are still blind.

When Jesus shall come with power and glory. All Jews will look up at Jesus, and they will weeping on him, they will bow down and confess that Jesus is the Lord, even, also Messiah too.

We do not need another future animal sacrifices again anymore. We are now looking at Jesus, He is our Lamb that we need him, asking him to forgive our sins daily 24 hours.

Jesus is the perfect eternity sacrifice!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[skypair]

I admit that I am sorely lacking in knowledge of eschatology, which is why I do not engage in those type discussions, but this one seems a little strange to me.
Why would God reinstate the sacrificial system when Christ has fulfilled all the law? Is it not "finished"? Wouldn't it's reinstatement mean that God has nullified Christ's sacrifice?
This doesn't make sense to me.

Why did Israel continue to celebrate Passover when they have already been saved from Egypt? Surely slaying and eating the lamb and bitter greens has no meaning now -- or do they? Why do they celebrate the feast of tabernacles when they truly believe that Messiah has not come?

Well, there's 2 reasons: 1) The LAW tells them to -- which law will obviously be in force in the MK and 2) it is symbolic of their particular calling to Christ as a chosen people.

The church, as you know, has their own ordinances but we do NOT see these observed in the MK (mainly Ezek 40-48 where the MK is spoken of by God).

The point is that I don't understand where those who say the MK is now --- where do they place these things seen in Ezek 40-48??

Don't be afraid to ask questions -- anything -- about prophecy, Amy. We all start somewhere and God's plans are truly glorious! :jesus:

The law has been fulfilled and nailed to the cross. Am I wrong??

The law is, indeed, fulfilled for those who come by the Way of the cross. But those who don't believe are not "under the Spirit" yet. THEY are under the law to obey it and be condemned or believe on Christ and be saved, right?

skypair

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Is there find anywhere in Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 saying anything about "a thousand years". If so, please show us a verse in Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 saying "a thousand years". Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

And you have missed the further point -- there will be 2 groups again after we, the church, get raptured. In fact, in the ages to come, Israel will NEVER live in NJ and the church will NEVER live in the New Earth. We will visit each other -- in fact, they will have to come into NJ to see God! We will be alike in every respect except that real estate imperative -- "location, location, location." :laugh:

Agreed. Amen! But "that day" has not even begun yet!

Negative. Shame! The MK begins when Christ returns to set it up at the end of the tribulation. You are making the MK SPRITUAL in every respect but the Bible says it is LITERAL in every respect! Just as it is only spiritually that we are under the law until we are saved, we are only spiritually in the kingdom after we are saved.

That is all different in the MK. Literally they will be under the law and literally they will be saved from physical death if they believe.

skypair

There will be two groups alright, there will be the church, which includes Israel, those who accepted Christ before death, and there will be the lost, those who rejected Christ, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

You say they have to come to MK to see God, then is God not going to be with them??


(We will visit each other), Yea, I can see it now, I will say to the wife, come on honey we are going over to visit Israel and be sure you don't bring any pork chops with you.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

You say they have to come to MK to see God, then is God not going to be with them??

I said that in "age of ages" they (Israel) will have to come into New Jerusalem (Rev 22:3-4) to see God.

I see you had the concepts pretty well scrambled in your mind already, eh? :laugh:

(We will visit each other), Yea, I can see it now, I will say to the wife, come on honey we are going over to visit Israel and be sure you don't bring any pork chops with you.

I think you are remembering your '85 mission trip to Ethiopia when you had your "daredevil" wife strap a ham sandwich on her back and try to run through Djiboudi unscathed, Bob! :laugh:

Can we get serious, Bobby? Who was MYSTERY BABYLON, the harlot that rode the beast (Rev 17)? Have you ever seen her? -- 'cause I have and if wasn't 2000 years ago either. The tribulation hasn't been and gone," Bob. It's still coming.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

I said that in "age of ages" they (Israel) will have to come into New Jerusalem (Rev 22:3-4) to see God.

I see you had the concepts pretty well scrambled in your mind already, eh? :laugh:

I think you are remembering your '85 mission trip to Ethiopia when you had your "daredevil" wife strap a ham sandwich on her back and try to run through Djiboudi unscathed, Bob! :laugh:

Can we get serious, Bobby? Who was MYSTERY BABYLON, the harlot that rode the beast (Rev 17)? Have you ever seen her? -- 'cause I have and if wasn't 2000 years ago either. The tribulation hasn't been and gone," Bob. It's still coming.

skypair

It is those who would sell their soul for "lust".

BBob,