• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Bob Jones III lied to Larry King

paidagogos

Active Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Actually Paul, as a native southerner who loves the north because of the weather, the Confederate flag was not a symbol of racism to the vast majority of people. That is not to say that some didn't use it that way, but most did not. I wouldn't paint with such a broad brush on that issue. IN my experience, the racism in the north was far greater than anything in the south when I was growing up. It was a rude awakening to come up here and see the overt racial divisions that are being exacerbated. And I think the reference to people marrying cousins is way overboard. We don't need that kind of stuff here. It is untrue and serves no real purpose to further the discussion. It is as bad as a racial attack ... You are attacking a group of people because of a sterertype, not because of reality. You complained about racism, but then turn around and practice the same ridiculous stereotyping. If you made a similar statement about ethnic group of people you would be labeled as a racist. It is not any better to make it about a geographic group of people. Surely you can see that, can't you?
Amen, brother! Well said. Despite our differences you and I agree here. You said it much better than I could have said it myself.{/b] Whereas I would have pinned his ears back and spit in his eye, you gave a kind, reasonable and irrefutable response. I'll keep my mouth shut and let you speak the truth for the South. Kudos.
 

Paul33

New Member
Pastor Larry, Paid, others,

Do you folks not understand humor when you hear it? I was speaking tongue-in-cheek to illustrate the obsurdity of Paid's comments.

You Southerners are a might touchy, eh?
 

Paul33

New Member
Paid,

Your comments in your most recent post illustrate again how out of sorts many of your ilk are.

So you would have pinned my ears back and spit in my eye. Are you that incapable of discussing anything without resorting to threats. Please.

If you knew how rediculous you sound you really would shut up. But that's not your way, is it?
 

Paul33

New Member
What BJU understood was that a confederate flag flown from a dorm window of a university that is supposed to represent order, decency, and respect for authority was or could be interpreted as a symbol of disrepect for America.

We live in the United States of America. If you want to show your civic pride, fly the American flag, not the confederate flag. But the Southern mindset of folks like Paid can't grasp that fact.

If it is offensive to your Northern "cousins," shouldn't you take the flag down? That's what BJU did!
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Do you folks not understand humor when you hear it? I was speaking tongue-in-cheek to illustrate the obsurdity of Paid's comments.
I am not touchy in the least. I laughed about it. But I think your statements were a direct contradiction. YOu have expressed dismay at the alleged racism of BJU, and made a big point out of a supposedly moral stand on the confederate flag. Then you turn around a make a joke about southerners that was based on a stereotype. I think it was inconsistent. You wouldn't have said that about a black person. Why say it about a southerner?

I don't care whether people fly the confederate flag or not. It is not a racial symbol and I don't fly it. I simply don't think it matters. There are real issues and people are upset about this stupid thing.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
thumbs.gif
No problem Paul. I honestly wasn't upset about it. I just found it strange in the context of your comments about race ... that's all. No problem for me ... All is good ...
 

ForHisGlory15

New Member
My greatest concern for BJU, a school which I love, is that they would be more willing to humbly confess wrong. The racial attitudes and actions of their former years (yes, they did have "Whites Only" signs above several drinking fountains/restrooms) have never been completely acknowledged as they ought to have been, let alone confessed. These kinds of things have been dismissed with the fact that this was consistent with the southern culture of that day, which is true, but not an excuse. The same thing with the biblical teaching that existed against interracial dating. Just confess that horrible exegesis led to unbiblical teaching. The same about the accreditation issue. The position was taken that accreditation goes against biblical principles, presenting terrible compromise in its demand to bring in an outside organization to approve one's mission statement when an institution should never answer to anyone but God. The suggestions by faculty to seek TRACS accreditation were continaully shelved on the basis that it was an evangelical organization and would be a clear demonstration of compromise. Same with scholarships. The acceptance of scholarship money was decreed as the demon that robs students of the invaluable lessons they need to learn about trust in God alone; and not only teaches them to trust in man and money, but also puts them in positions to "dip their hands in the coffers of the heathen." With TRACS, students will have government scholarships available to them as well as the Life Scholarships that they have been receiving, which are completely funded by the lottery. I am not against any of these changes, but I am deeply concerned over the deviation from positions that were once underpinned with such strong "biblical" rhetoric, and then spun in such a way as to avoid confession. It ultimately undermines the credibility of the Word with students and the credibility of every important thing that is said. The "I wonder what else is going to change in the Bible this year" kind of jokes are prolific among the students. I feel very sad for the well-meaning, but blindly loyal graduates who have taken up the "biblical" banner of these issues, even taking hits for their stance, only to find the positions aren't so biblical afterall. I feel sad for godly organizations that were met with condemnation for doing the very things that BJU is now choosing to do, taking hits from the University constituency for things such as their acceptance of scholarships, music standards, rules, accreditation, etc. All institutions face change with time, so nobody would be questioning the changes if BJU had not presented their positions as such "uncompromising declarations of biblical truth." They have lost a loyalty among their constituents that they once had, and graduates are being awakened to the fact that all truth and biblical positioning does not flow from this one "bastion of fundamentalism." There has been an ungodly kind of worship of the institution that has made God small and man big, so this consequence is good for the Cause of Christ and for the overall health of fundamentalism. All of this, however, along with the dwindling of the "support only BJU" churches, has elevated the marketing concerns at BJ to an all-time high. It is driving much of what they do. The most recent change we are now seeing and hearing is the presentation of a broader and more pragmatic approach to separation issues, and not surprisingly, it's being presented without any confession of position adjustment. No matter how one chooses to look at it, this is all political spinning, and it's done well. There has also been some envelope pushing with the music, and a recent choir tour brought a stream of pastoral complaints. This is the fallout of being extra biblical and presenting issues as "black and white," and they are dealing with the monstors they've created.
 

Paul33

New Member
Excellent assessment, ForHisGlory15,

You stated my observations of BJU exactly!

They created an extrabiblical monster that they used to clobber those who didn't agree with their positions. And when they changed, did they say, "Hey, we're sorry." Not on your life.

You are right. That is the sad part of the story.

If accredication was compromise with new-evangelicals, what should we make of speaking at Furman? That is compromise with liberals!!!

BJU wouldn't dream of bringing in "evangelicals" to speak to the student body about theology, religion, biblical counseling, Christian education, etc.

However, if something were purely of the "arts" like opera or instrumentals, then it didn't matter that the artists were nonbelievers. But they would never dream of bringing in a "Christian artist" that was "new-evanelical."

Like ForHisGlory15, I agree with the changes that BJU is making. I just wish that they had the integrity to say mea culpa.

Some other changes that they need to make. No more chaperones. No more unequal rules for men and women students. Start treating the kids like adults!
 

UZThD

New Member
Originally posted by Paul33:

BJU wouldn't dream of bringing in "evangelicals" to speak to the student body about theology, religion, biblical counseling, Christian education, etc.

===


Someone please help me to understand this. I am an EVANGELICAL and a member of the Evangelical Theological Society. In March I will bring a paper on Christology to the NW ETS meeting at Multnomah. I've worked hard on this paper and I think it glorifies Christ! I am a grad of Western Conservative Baptist Seminary. I believe in the deity, virgin birth, efficacious death and bodily resurrection of Christ and in His physical second coming. I believe in the inspiration, inerrancy, and authority of the autographa of Scripture. If I am representative of "evangelicals," , and I think I am, then for what *good* reasons would BJU not allow me ,or one like me, to speak or teach there about theology etc?
 

aefting

New Member
There has also been some envelope pushing with the music, and a recent choir tour brought a stream of pastoral complaints.
What kind of envelope pushing are you talking about?

Andy
 

ForHisGlory15

New Member
[/QUOTE]What kind of envelope pushing are you talking about?[/QUOTE]

The addition of a talented, younger choir director who returned after completing his graduate work has provided the impetus to take some musical ground that many at BJU are welcoming and would say is legitimate. The innovative styling, chording, and arranging is new; and it is lending a fresh, creative sound. The second area of change has to do with a move toward taking musical pieces on the merit of their own worth. It's the same kind of path that Steve Pettit has been forging, rearranging contemporary Christian musical selections and incorporating them into his repertoire. This path is far from cleared, and Pettit's latest CD is not sold in the Campus Store because of the customer complaint. It's not just the fact that this new musical ground is being taken. It's the fact that this is ground that was once deeded unlawful in the past, and it serves to support my original concern. Discord so heavily surrounds every change that is made at BJ, because they have produced a constituency that has faithfully drawn their lines in the black and white fashion in which they were taught. It is going to be extremely difficult to juggle the past and the present, for the satisfaction of one will certainly be the vexation of the other.
 

Paul33

New Member
UZTHD,

Your fault, in the eyes of BJU, is that you fellowship with those who dialogue with liberals.

The issue for BJU is secondary separation.

Coming out of the fundamentalist/modernist era, true fundamentalists pulled out of their liberal denominations and no longer were in fellowship with the liberals. But, if your fellow colleague who was also a fundamentalist chose to remain in the liberal denomination, he was compromising and must be avoided. Therefore, anyone who fellowshiped with this compromising fundamentalist brother was also to be avoided.

That's why, despite your fine fundamental credentials, as an evangelical who fellowships with "some" who might dialogue with liberals, you must be avoided!

It is absurd, I know, but I have been a victim of it from my own grandfather's Bible college!
 

Paul33

New Member
ForHisGlory15,

And this same vexation is taking place in the fundamental churches. Churches are unable to move forward, or even call pastors, because of the split in the congregations over these same issues.

NBBC is experiencing the same problem. If they want to lighten up on their dress code, they get complaints from "pastors" who are so out of touch with reality and biblical standards that it makes one's head spin.

BJU, NBBC, and other colleges should do what's right and in the best interest of their students and forget about the small but vocal "pastoral" minority. Also, these institutions need to admit their mistake in teaching these positions, and start teaching their students and constituency where they went wrong and why they are now making the changes.

I think that many in the churches would support this. However, I also see a new wave of "Bible colleges" springing up to maintain the "true values and spirituality" of fundamentalism.

It's too bad that folks can't read the Bible for themsleves without looking to the "pope" in Greenville, or the "archbishop" in Dunbar. I know for a fact that NBBC can't make any decision without first checking with BJU. It is sickening.
 

Greg Linscott

<img src =/7963.jpg>
I can see your point here, FHG. What it seems is happening is that the principles aren't changing, but the application might be being adjusted. We face things like that in our ministries, too. Dress issues, for example. I emphasize modesty, as did my predcessor, but I don't emphasize cullottes as he did. The principle hasn't changed. This is something that some in my congregation may struggle with. I am trying to be careful in the way I handle this issue, because I don't want to criticze the man or undermine his ministry, but I also want to teach my new converts especially the wisdom of making right choices, not defaulting back to a standard without really understanding the Scripture behind it.

I think it is somewhat indicative of the Fundamentalism of my formative years. There has been an emphasis on what I believe to be generally right principles, but the effort to teach them has been focused on the specific application (such as cullottes), and not on doctrinal truth (modesty). Hence the confusion when the specific application looks slightly different (such as with the music issue you reference).

We have faced some similar issues because we use the We're Singing book from the Wilds, the new 7th edition that just came out. We have recently sung "As The Deer" and "Lamb of Glory," both which are included in this edition (which is well worth the investment, in my opinion- it's a wonderful and appropriately innovative book). Some who have focused on emphasizing application are struggling as to why it's acceptable to sing these songs (which I must confess I have questioned myself). I have drawn the conclusion that their doctrine is acceptable, the music is appropriate and worshipful, and their dominant associations do not distract from the purpose of shaping and directing the corporate worship of God.

BJU is facing similar challenges. Fundamentalism must be able to articulate and justify its practices based on Scripture, not simple tradition. As an outsider, it seems to me that the traditions are being evaluated, and gradual adjustments are being made to make things more Biblical. This is to be commended, IMHO. However, they are not doing it impulsively, but they are doing it gradually, with the due reverence and respect afforded to faithful (but fallible) forbears.

I'm finally finished. Phew!
wave.gif
 

UZThD

New Member
Originally posted by Paul33:
[QB] UZTHD,

Your fault, in the eyes of BJU, is that you fellowship with those who dialogue with liberals.

The issue for BJU is secondary separation.

===

I think I see. It is true that I would "dialogue" with a liberal or an Arminian or an Amillenialist or a Roman Catholic or a Mormon AS LONG AS I was allowed to express my own views where we disagreed. I may even see some worth in what they say. I don't think that I or the leaders of my denomination or my Evangelicalism are omniscient!

I regularly read Wiley and Miley and Pieper and Chemnitz and Luther and Calvin and Strong and Grudem and Hodge and Frame and Feinberg and Shedd and Augustine and Nestorius and the Damascene and Cyril and a very literal host of others. I read these like I eat chicken, devouring the meat, but discarding what ( I perceive as ) bones.

This month I go to Sacramento and next month to Portland to in evangelical academic venues try to convince others that God the Son is not eternally essentiated ( as Nicaea) or eternally role subordinated ( as Dahms) to God the Father. I will be asked and will try to answer questions. I see nothing wrong in this!

I think Paul dialogued on Mars Hill. I think we are to dialogue to answer those who ask. I think we were are to dialogue to convince others of our views which we think are apostolic(Tt 1:9). I see no Biblical evidence against doing that. If there is, perhaps this Board should shut down??

Someone was kind enough by PM to provide more sites for me to look at. As I have time I will. Thanks.

But I'm quite happy "where" I am , and I'm not convinced that being "Fundamental" as opposed to being "Evangelical" makes one any closer to the Biblical norms for belief and practice. I don't think that Fundamentalism is a more effective insulation from error than is Evangelicalism.

Thanks,
 

ForHisGlory15

New Member
Well said, Greg. I am encouraged, too, with the renewed emphasis on pure Biblical application. It is going to take grace for all involved, and a willingness for corrections to be made whether it is done in a way we think best or not. I would wish for a route to be taken that offers apologies, but even if it isn't taken, I want to remain a grace-filled believer who is thankful we are moving forward in a more Christ-honoring way. I can see temptations toward bitterness springing up in those who were recipients of the "tsk-tsk" finger-pointing for actions that are now being deemed acceptable. I can see the frustration with the fact that BJU has been the "stamp" of what is good and acceptable. When I talk with the leadership at the smaller fundamental Christian colleges, I don't sense from any of them a desire to look to "big brother" for approval, but they admit that he has been powerful enough to cause damage to them if he desires. I find that they hate the politics, but have found little way to escape. These fundamental schools are fishing in the same pond, and if the big kahuna splashes his tail of disapproval, there are still enough pastors out there who would jump ship on supporting their school without thought. It's been something that BJU has fed through clever marketing strategies that sadly denegrate these other schools. Statements such as "We wouldn't think of putting our students in spiritual and academic danger with an inter-collegiate sports program" or "As for men wearing ties to class, other insitutions have changed their policies in this matter, but we are not succumbing to the worldly pressures to engage in casual dress that is not polished and does not lead to professionalism." There is pressure from inside BJU for them to put aside this kind of marketing madness. I also believe the blindly loyal, ship-jumping pastors out there are decreasing rapidly, and that's another good sign. More and more, I think we will witness institutions and churches acting on Biblical integrity alone, without such a warped regard to big brother.
 
Top