Bob Jones U?

smoke and mirrors:

you stated, "I understand you guys hate Catholics"
my my...
anyway, lived at Bj from 1977 to 1988 and never once did I hear that we were to hate Catholics or anyone else. Remember studying in my College Bible class how Catholics were actually stressing salvation by faith again and we should rejoice over that.
please, don't buy into everything you hear on the news.

paul

 

Larry,

I'm not sure it's my responsibility to prove what is, to the rest of the world, common knowledge.

Certainly, the U.S. State Department knew about his past when the Reagan administration denied him a visa to visit the U.S. to rant at BJU (in all fairness, they also denied a visa to Gerry Adams).

Congressmen Peter King (R-N.Y.), Chris Smith (R-N.J.) and several others knew about his past when they urged BJU to cut ties with him.

Larry, I don't know what you think of when you hear the name "Ian Paisley", but I immediately think of Drumcree, Omagh, Ballymena and I swear I can hear the anguished cries of the Quinn children as they are burned alive in their beds by Paisley's followers.

If you want to consider that "foolishness", that's up to you but I think Christ takes quite a different view of someone preaching violence against those for whom He died (and in His name, no less).

I always have to stifle a laugh when someone says, "Oh, but the 'Irish situation' is very complex". No, it's not. Disband the RUC (which has been condemned by virtually every human rights group known to man, including The U.N. Council on Human Rights, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch), go after loyalist para's using the same standards you use for nationalists, get your armed forces out and let the people of Ireland be one united nation (but that's for another conversation).

The point is was making was: Why would they agree to the GFA if they had no intention of honoring their committments in the first place?

Even David Trimble, of all people, had the good sense to sever ties with Paisley and to denounce him as a "nut".

How far "out there" must you be when even someone like David Trimble thinks you've lost touch?

My guess is that the reason BJIII keeps such close company with Paisley is that Paisley makes him look almost sane.

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

You made that statement that Ian Paisley encourages his followers to murder Catholics. That is not common knowledge. In fact, I rather suspect it is a bald-faced lie. The burden of proof is on you to prove the ridiculous accusation you made. Otherwise it is slander. I have no affinity for Paisley. But I do have an affinity for the truth.

The Irish situation is definitely more complex than you are admitting it to be. The IRA has been the source of much violence over there and you know it. In the last few years, there have been a number of attacks on Catholics, but if you have information that Paisley has ordered them you should inform the BBC. They called it an "unanswered question." They appear to know nothing about it. Paisley is no doubt a fierce unionist which means he has political differences with Sinn Fein. That does not make him a murderer.

Again, the charges you make are unfounded. You apparently have some affinity for the Irish situation and that is fine. I really don't care. But if you are going to make outrageous statements as you did concerning murder, then you better be prepared to back it up with more than yourself.

As for Paisley making BJIII look sane, I think your ad hominem attacks are obvious.

 

So then, Larry,

The U.N., Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, SAOIRSE, the A.O.H., The Pat Finucane Center, Bernadette Devlin Macalisky, INAC, Friends of Sinn Fein, the South Armagh Farmers and Resident's Committee, Na Fianna Erin, Orange Watch, the Irish People (newspaper), An Plobacht (newspaper), Clan na Gael, the U.S. State department, I.P.P.C.H., several members of the U.S. Congress and many other watchdog groups are all wrong, but you're right

I've never said that Paisley "ordered" hits on anyone, although, given his level of hatred for Catholics and nationalists, nothing would surprise me.

As someone with an "affinity for the truth", you certainly take the BBC's word very quickly. When have they ever not chosen sides against those who want freedom in the Northern six?

As for my thoughts on BJIII, I've corresponded with the man, personally. My impression from those correspondences is that he is, as my South Philly friends would say, "a smack". I stand by that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> As for Paisley making BJIII look sane... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I said "almost sane".

It would take someone on the level of a Mumia supporter to make BJIII look truly sane.

Larry, in all seriousness, let's remember that the reason it took the U.S. so long to become involved in the war in Europe was that it was just impossible to believe that the Third Reich could really be so bad.

No, I'm not comparing Paisley to Hitler as much as I dislike the man and despise his politics, he is no Hitler.

My point is that I talk to so many people who believe that these things couldn't possibly happen becauseEngland is our friend. Surely a nation which claims to love freedom as much as we do wouldn't be allies with a country who has done the things that Great Britain is supposed to have done in the Norhern Six.

Larry, I do have "an affinity", as you said for this issue because my family is from there and I still have many relatives there.

I spent summers as a child there so, between my family and my time there as a child I've grown up feeling very passionately about this.

BTW, Roma Downey, of "Touched by an Angel" (I know, I know, but that's another thread), has produced several documentaries about what it's like to grow up Catholic in Derry.

Anyway, if you think I'm doing this beause I have an ax to grind, that's your perogative. The truth is that I know these people, I love these people and I desperately want them to be free from the fear of having someone drag them out of their house in the middle of the night to beat them, knee cap them, or worse.

I want an end to Diplock courts and brutal prison systems. Simply put, I want all of the people of Northern Ireland to know the same freedoms that we have here.

In all fairness to you, I have grown up in Irish circles so these things are common knowledge to many of us. I don't know what your ethnic background or political ideology is but there is a huge Republican movement here in the States and there are a lot of us who have written to BJU to discuss their relationship to Paisley.

I won't ask you to believe me, because clearly you don't but you may want to contact the Irish Northern Aid Committee (I'll bet there is a chapter in the nearest big city to you) or the Ancient Order of Hibernians (I'm sure there's a division near you, as well).

Even Congressmen Peter King and Chris Smith have been very outspoken about Paisley. Perhaps you would listen to them (although, I should warn you, they are Catholic).

In case you're wondering, Larry, yes, I do pray for Ian Paisley. I wonder if he would ever do the same for me?

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

I think you mistake me for someone who cares. I don't mean that bad but what goes on in Northern Ireland politics is of little concern to me. My point is that you accused a preacher of the gospel of "encouraging his followers to murder Catholics." Now it appears that you are backing away from that statement.

I am sure that many people don't like Paisley in Northern Ireland; and I am sure that many people you cite outside of NI don't like him. I simply don't care one way or the other.

My point was that if you are going to accuse anyone of encouraging others to murder Catholics, then you need to back it up with his statements or with objective proof -- not with the opinions of those who don't like him.

As for BJIII, I am not sure what you mean by a smack. You may have corresponded with him; I know him personally. While you may reject his positions on a number of things, to say that it would take Mumia supporter to make him look sane is probably a bit beyond the pale of reasonability. I do not care for everything he says or does but that is a long ways from insane. But be that as it may ...

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I think you mistake me for someone who cares. I don't mean that bad but what goes on in Northern Ireland politics is of little concern to me. My point is that you accused a preacher of the gospel of "encouraging his followers to murder Catholics." Now it appears that you are backing away from that statement.

I am sure that many people don't like Paisley in Northern Ireland; and I am sure that many people you cite outside of NI don't like him. I simply don't care one way or the other.

My point was that if you are going to accuse anyone of encouraging others to murder Catholics, then you need to back it up with his statements or with objective proof -- not with the opinions of those who don't like him.

As for BJIII, I am not sure what you mean by a smack. You may have corresponded with him; I know him personally. While you may reject his positions on a number of things, to say that it would take Mumia supporter to make him look sane is probably a bit beyond the pale of reasonability. I do not care for everything he says or does but that is a long ways from insane. But be that as it may ...

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry, I've never backed off from saying that Paisley preaches violence against Catholics and nationalists. His history is all too public.

As far as calling BJIII a "smack", that's a slang word popular here in Philadelphia. It's short for something that wouldn't be printable on Baptist Board (unless you were using it in reference to a Catholic or gay person, I guess). I'm willing to give BJIII the benefit and say that he may be a swell guy to those who know him, but that's certainly not how he came across in his e-mails to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I think you mistake me for one who cares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously I did. Since you don't there's no point in carrying on this conversation. I think Jesus cares about them, though.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
Obviously I did. Since you don't there's no point in carrying on this conversation. I think Jesus cares about them, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you misunderstood this: I did not mean I am uncaring about people. I meant that the situation in Northern Ireland is not a great concern to me. I am sure it is serious for the people who live there; it is simply not something that dominates my thoughts. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other what the outcome of the situation is in Northern Ireland.

As for your comments, it is my opinion that you have provided no evidence beyond your word that Paisley encourages murder or violence against Catholics. At this point, it is simply your (clearly biased) opinion that he does. I have read the BBC, done a search on NI and Paisley to try to find any reference to your remarks. I have yet to find it, even among his detractors.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


I think you misunderstood this: I did not mean I am uncaring about people. I meant that the situation in Northern Ireland is not a great concern to me. I am sure it is serious for the people who live there; it is simply not something that dominates my thoughts. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other what the outcome of the situation is in Northern Ireland.

As for your comments, it is my opinion that you have provided no evidence beyond your word that Paisley encourages murder or violence against Catholics. At this point, it is simply your (clearly biased) opinion that he does. I have read the BBC, done a search on NI and Paisley to try to find any reference to your remarks. I have yet to find it, even among his detractors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How sad that one of Christ's followers could look at so much violence and oppression towards people for whom Jesus died and say, "It doesn't matter to me".

Would it matter if they were Baptists?

As for the BBC, they are pro Unionist. Why would you think that they would give you unbiased information

My guess is that you went there because you already knew what you would find.

Am I biased? Of course I am. See the things I've seen these people do and tell me if you're not biased.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
How sad that one of Christ's followers could look at so much violence and oppression towards people for whom Jesus died and say, "It doesn't matter to me".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How sad it is that someone could read what I wrote and misintepret it so badly and then proceed to beat a dead horse.

Let me try again: I do care when people are oppressed. However, the situation in Northern Ireland is not something that is of great concern to me because I have no ties there, no real interest in the situation, and it doesn't really affect me. I am not calloused towards it; I simply live in a different context with other concerns. In other words, I am not calloused; I am uninformed and unaffected. Similar things happen in countries all over the world. I do not spend time studying and searching out them either.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for the BBC, they are pro Unionist. Why would you think that they would give you unbiased information<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had you not told me that, I would have never known it. A week ago, until you made the charge that you did, I had not thought about NI for years to my knowledge. I didn't even know what a "unionist" was. I didn't know that Sinn Fein was the opposition party to Paisley's group. I would never have associated Trimble with Paisley had you not mentioned it in the last post. I wouldn't know biased information if it hit me in the face. These things simply aren't a part of my life. As for the BBC, I did not look for their site. I did a search on Paisley, and the BBC was one of the sites that had information about him.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Am I biased? Of course I am. See the things I've seen these people do and tell me if you're not biased.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I sympathize with you and for you. But understand, I know nothing about it; it is not a part of my life; I have no connections or ties to it; it is not in the daily news so I don't read about it, etc.

No doubt, in the American revolution of 225 years ago, the sides would have much resembled what happens in NI. There were people who wanted to retain ties with England and there were those who did not. Perhaps the violence was not as great but then people were a little more civilized as a whole when it came to social graces in disputes. The nature of the dispute is an old one.

My concern is your (still unsubstantiated) charge that Paisley "encourages his followers to murder Catholics." That is a serious charge and you should either back it up or retract it, IMO.

Anyway, we are way off topic here and discussing something I know nothing about. I try to stay out of conversations I don't know anything about.

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I try to stay out of conversations I don't know anything about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try harder.

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

I didn't start the conversation about NI. I asked for support for a statement you made that you still have provided no evidence for. I said that you have greatly oversimplified the situation in NI, which in this forum you have. You may know a good deal more than you are letting on here but it is not as simple as saying "They are wrong because I said so."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I didn't start the conversation about NI. I asked for support for a statement you made that you still have provided no evidence for. I said that you have greatly oversimplified the situation in NI, which in this forum you have. You may know a good deal more than you are letting on here but it is not as simple as saying "They are wrong because I said so."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry, it's finals time and I don't have time to run all over the internet finding resources to educate you. I'm sorry that, by your own admission, you don't know what you're talking about but I can't hold your hand.

I don't believe I've ever said "they are wrong because I said so".

In what way have I oversimplified the situation in the Northern Six? I would be curious to hear this since you've already admitted that you don't know what you're talking about, nor do you care.

 

Squire,

I don't think anyone is claiming that Paisley "ordered" the murder of Catholics (although, given his great hatred toward them, who knows?) or nationalists.

I do believe that many of his political speeches, particularly those concerning the Orange rampages, contain inflamatory language which may encourage those Orangemen already prone to violence (redundant) to carry through with the act.

In addition, I believe his idiotic insistance that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and that the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon may encourage some of his followers to think that they are doing God's will by eliminating them.

I do contribute to NorAid, though, as well as Friends of Sinn Fein, I.P.P.C.H. and other pro-Irish causes.

http://www.Spiritof16.net

Mike

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]