Bobby talks to his Pastor about God.

[Iconoclast]

That's PRECISELY what happened S.N. Why don't you sslllowwwww doowwwwn and read them both again:

Van said:


Ann replied (as Calvies do):


So.....let's make this as EASY as possible:
Van said:
-A.............or......it's NOT the case.....or NOT-A

and ANN responded like this, as a perfectly conditioned pre-programmed Calvie without even bothering to read what Van said:
A.............or.......it IS the case.......or A

So, Yeah.....dude............she ABSOLUTELY mis-read what Van said.

More accurately, she didn't "mis-read" it.............

She assumed already what Van was going to say (because she has already been conditioned to respond to what Van has to say by her husband and other Calvinists who've never spoken to Van in their life)................and she only heard what she thought she was supposed to hear. (Which is literally the OPPOSITE of what Van said).

She has been beautifully conditioned to assume that any time a non-Calvinist opens their mouths they are preaching Universalism or blah blah blah or whatever lies she's been told....and so even though Van said PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE of what she responded to...........
She saw only what she already "knew" he meant:

You have done PRECISELY the same thing.

I have met Ann and her husband. While he is very gifted and articulate I can assure you Ann does not need to run over to him to get a preprogrammed response...Ann, like AmyG and Scarlett O. are godly women who study to show themselves approved. Ann evidences a good amount of grace gifts and is a large asset to her husband in the ministry.
As far as anyone mis-reading Van's posts[particularly] when he is responding...should this be a shock? He drifts all over the place more than a fart in a windstorm....constant shuck and jive, like trying to nail the proverbial jello to the wall....:wavey:

Van...did you respond to Archangels post clarifying the greek words as he requested??? Do not worry...I am not holding my breath on that one:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Van

Are the elect chosen for salvation before creation, or after they have lived without mercy, 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Peter quotes from Hosea about the NON COVENANT gentiles,,,,who lived apart from the Covenant, in the OT times with few exceptions...

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.



That has nothing to do with election or the timing of it as you suggest here.
You are not even in the ballpark....much less three strikes:laugh:

 

[annsni]

I have been thinking about this pithy question, and frankly I am stumped. Not saying something means nothing was said, about anything even the sky color. Saying a person said the sky was blue, when he said it was not blue, does not change the color of the sky. Best I can do Ann.

Do you not use this form of speech? Seriously, I use it frequently so when I read "Does not" is the same as "Doesn't" so I read what you wrote "Does, not all people receive the reconciliation ring a bell?" as "Doesn't "all people receive the reconciliation" ring a bell?"

As far as my husband, he hasn't conditioned me to anything. Well, maybe he has conditioned me to help him more when he is having trouble walking but that is about it. I discovered the Doctrine of Grace on my own through the Scriptures and was astonished because it went against all I had grown up believing. I believe it was about the same time that my husband came to the same conclusion. So we got to this point together and love having discussions and reading the Scriptures more about this!

And Icon? Thank you so much for the kind words! OT alert: We have found a location to have a small VBS in the community and we are currently looking for a more permanent location. Things are still going great and we're seeing a LOT of ministry happening. It's so neat to see God working around us and being able to join Him in it!

 

[Inspector Javert]

I have met Ann and her husband. While he is very gifted and articulate I can assure you Ann does not need to run over to him to get a preprogrammed response...Ann, like AmyG and Scarlett O. are godly women who study to show themselves approved. Ann evidences a good amount of grace gifts and is a large asset to her husband in the ministry.
As far as anyone mis-reading Van's posts[particularly] when he is responding...should this be a shock? He drifts all over the place more than a fart in a windstorm....constant shuck and jive, like trying to nail the proverbial jello to the wall....:wavey:

Van...did you respond to Archangels post clarifying the greek words as he requested??? Do not worry...I am not holding my breath on that one:laugh:

Ann couldn't distinguish between this concept Icon:

NOT RECONCILED

And

RECONCILED

Those are the facts.....and I don't care about who you've met or not.....The facts are....

Ann didn't rightly differentiate between a concept as simple as (in mathematical terms)
0......and 1

Those are the facts sir...the facts.

Eat them...take salt, and enjoy it.......My wife is ALSO a "great asset" in ministry......and she knows the difference between the value of 1 and 0...

The difference is...my wife is usually smart enough to NOT embarrass me by posting utter ignorance as Ann did.

Scarlett and AmyG are their own persons...

I am not so much of a mysoginistic jerk that I lump all women together into the same category merely due to their sex. Neither Scarlett, nor Amy have posted on this thread...so, why did YOU bring them up Icon????

HUH????

I don't lump all females into the same category as you do. Apparently... you should re-think your sexist attitudes.

 

[Inspector Javert]

I have met Ann and her husband. While he is very gifted and articulate I can assure you Ann does not need to run over to him to get a preprogrammed response...QUOTE]

No....she doesn't "run over to him for it".....I didn't say that....I'm not as stupid as that. she's already sufficiently conditioned such that it occurs naturally.

It's the same with you too. You are PERFECTLY CONDITIONED! You are the most Conditioned person on B.B!!!! Your responses are WAY more conditioned than Ann's or any other woman you want to mention. You're the KING of conditioned response....

I only wish the Arminians would have gotten to the likes of you FIRST!!!!....by the GODS...you are quite the warrior for whatever position you commit to! Icon.............I am not suggesting that Ann, Scarlett or Amy are LESS conditioned than you.....

YOU SIR...are WAY WAY WAY more a slave to creedalism than any of them are :laugh:

 

[Inspector Javert]

In all candor, I am susceptible of making similar mistakes. As everyone knows, I took what I thought
was a piece written by an atheist, and parodied it, providing biblical answers instead of atheistic answers. However, when Rippon suggested the source was not atheistic, I re-looked at the matter and did indeed conclude it was written by a Calvinistic leaning fellow who apparently believes non-Cals believe in "another gospel.

Van.............read the initial thread AGAIN!!!! You were CORRECT! It WAS an Atheist parody of Chrisianity... You weren't wrong.
You were correct. The initial source is an atheistic parody of Christianity...and the atheist draws his arguments from an assumed Calvinistic pre-supposition against theism.

Rippon is not able to distinguish between primary and secondary sources....the source he quotes (which he was so desperate to impugn you with "plagiarism" for) was NOT the original source article.

The original source article WAS INDEED an atheist propaganda against theism, and the author used the inconsistency of CALVINISM to demonstrate his POINT!!! Rippon went into a tirade against your Satanic felonious crime of "plagiarism" by citing a source which had actually COPIED the ORIGINAL SOURCE ARTICLE.

Your initial instinct was CORRECT!....Rippon's source was NOT the Original at all.

 

[Iconoclast]

Inspector Javert

The difference is...my wife is usually smart enough to NOT embarrass me by posting utter ignorance

No...she knows you have that one covered all by yourself:laugh::laugh:

C'mon....admit it...that is funny....you walked into that one,lol

YOU SIR...are WAY WAY WAY more a slave to creedalism than any of them are

Guilty as charged my friend. I am not that smart and i know it. I have been blessed however to have met some gifted men who are very smart...I mean where they have to condescend to speak with me and explain things in a way to plant seed to help me grow. I have heard some of the best preaching taking place in our generation in person and under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Simply put....I am smart enough however to know when reading a more gifted brothers teaching, or the truth of God written by a reformer or puritan, if it is the truth ....to welcome it .
There are times i have learned from some godly non cals...one of the more solid is James Macdonald from Walk in the Word.....

I do not care if it is the clerk at 7-11 if he offers truth I want it.

Those gifted persons who wrote the catechisms and confessions i respect and do not despise. Think of it this way.....unless we meet some day at the Petro....you are in my world ...in cyber-space ..as i see your written words.

So if i read these departed saints....i read their thoughts and teaching on scripture.....sifting through it....They are as much my friends as those alive in person now...who i have not met face to face.

The Holy Spirit works effectually through the word of God spoken of 200-300 years ago, or ten minutes ago.

That is the pattern God himself has chosen in having 40 different men write 66 books for us.

You are a well read person, so you of all people should welcome solid input from such sources.As much as you think you know....I have met people who would blow you out of the water without any great struggle if they wanted to......but what is the point of all that??? It becomes vain boasting at some point and not after godliness.

Ann asked Van 3-4 questions...each similar...dealing with actual /potential-

atonement, reconciliation, propitiation...she never got a clear response...more of a nebulous unscriptural rambling one.She just pressed for the clarity that has escaped VAN.

Do you collect stray cats??? You take in all manner of error and try to offer a defense for these ideas. I see what you are doing...quite noble on one hand...but then again sometimes you go over the edge due to frustration I suppose.

 

[annsni]

It's interesting that "Inspector" has ignored my post. :laugh:

 

[Inspector Javert]

Do you collect stray cats???

I hate cats....any "REAL" man hates all cats, Icon, and you know this.....That being said, My wife DID take in such a beast, and it happens to be the case that that damnable CAT LOVES :love2: and adores ME!!! such that I can't discard the beast. It became "MY" cat....even though I hate the animal....that's how cats work.

Inspector Javert
No...she knows you have that one covered all by yourself
C'mon....admit it...that is funny....you walked into that one,lol

Yah.......That was pretty funny.........and yes I did. Who can argue with that! I walked into it :laugh:

Guilty as charged my friend. I am not that smart and i know it. I have been blessed however to have met some gifted men who are very smart...

None of us have charged you with not being "smart". You ARE "smart". Truth be told....I think that any Arminian on this board will insist that you are FAR "SMARTER" (although to prove it, you should use a word like 'intelligent'):thumbsup: than you are claiming.

You ARE "SMART"....but, you were also "smart" enough to try to trap me by saying;
"guilty as charged"....................
Here's where you AREN'T so "SMART"
I NEVER SAID you weren't "SMART"....nor did I charge you with it. So, your feigned humility game is called:
I didn't accuse you of not being "smart"...so you can't level that on me....

Icon...I'M "SMART" enough NOT to fall for that one, dude :thumbsup:

You are a well read person, so you of all people should welcome solid input from such sources.As much as you think you know....I have met people who would blow you out of the water without any great struggle if they wanted to......but what is the point of all that???

If you knew them...you would have already employed their wisdom to rejoinder me.

I call your bluff. I don't believe that you are familiar with such persons. I am familiar with the writings of quite an ingenius Calvinist or two myself, and I STILL reject their conclusions.

I've read MANY a Calvinist rejoinder to any position I hold...and they haven't convinced me yet. I'm not ignorant of Calvinist Theology or Polemic Icon.........I've simply got an answer for ANYTHING they GOT!!!

I don't believe you, and I call your bluff.
I ask you officially, and publically to arrange a public internet debate betwixt myself and these geniuses whom you claim can "blow me out of the water". I don't think so. I think I can handle anything you got......
My offer stands. Send an invite to your Churches' Senior elders to debate publically, and I promise that I accept any challenge.

Ann asked Van 3-4 questions...each similar...dealing with actual /potential-

atonement, reconciliation, propitiation...she never got a clear response...more of a nebulous

No.........Ann couldn't differentiate between "reconciled" and "not-reconciled"...her questions were meaningless, pointless, un-informed and, as I submitted before...simply "conditioned".

I'm sorry dude, I like Ann personally...........but she couldn't distinguish between something as simple as:
(A)
or
(not-A)

Her questions were a gigantic bag of "fail". She didn't know what she was talking about. I'm sorry, but, that's what happened.

 

[Inspector Javert]

It's interesting that "Inspector" has ignored my post. :laugh:

I did???? What'd I miss? Please speak. I am speaking on more threads than THIS ONE I ain't scared...whatcha' got?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's interesting that "Inspector" has ignored my post. :laugh:

You know thats probably HOS, right.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Do you not use this form of speech? Seriously, I use it frequently so when I read "Does not" is the same as "Doesn't" so I read what you wrote "Does, not all people receive the reconciliation ring a bell?" as "Doesn't "all people receive the reconciliation" ring a bell?"

As far as my husband, he hasn't conditioned me to anything. Well, maybe he has conditioned me to help him more when he is having trouble walking but that is about it. I discovered the Doctrine of Grace on my own through the Scriptures and was astonished because it went against all I had grown up believing. I believe it was about the same time that my husband came to the same conclusion. So we got to this point together and love having discussions and reading the Scriptures more about this!

And Icon? Thank you so much for the kind words! OT alert: We have found a location to have a small VBS in the community and we are currently looking for a more permanent location. Things are still going great and we're seeing a LOT of ministry happening. It's so neat to see God working around us and being able to join Him in it!

OH....you mean that THIS ONE is the one I "ignored".................I think............Oh.......

My response is, uh...."Good for you" ????
You totally rock, and so does your hubby who gave up his multi-gazillion dollar life to serve Jesus and what-not. You rule. And you totally have your own mind, and aren't subject to any influence of his in your views of soteriology...

So...since that's your gig...go you. :wavey::godisgood:

 

[Inspector Javert]

You know thats probably HOS, right.

Probably.................or......more accurately........H.O.S. is my sister's husband.

Either way, what difference does it make to you?
Have you:

"killed men for less"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OH....you mean that THIS ONE is the one I "ignored".................I think............Oh.......

My response is, uh...."Good for you" ????
You totally rock, and so does your hubby who gave up his multi-gazillion dollar life to serve Jesus and what-not. You rule. And you totally have your own mind, and aren't subject to any influence of his in your views of soteriology...

So...since that's your gig...go you. :wavey::godisgood:

No worries...they still have bible studies at the Yacht club...:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Probably.................or......more accurately........H.O.S. is my sister's husband.

Either way, what difference does it make to you?
Have you:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

And btw wingnut.... put this in its context

Quote:
"killed men for less"? :laugh:

 

[Inspector Javert]

No worries...they still have bible studies at the Yacht club...:laugh:

We're from Florida...."Yacht clubs" are a Connecticut thing, I think.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We're from Florida...."Yacht clubs" are a Connecticut thing, I think.

And Long Guyland:wavey:

 

[Van]

Do you not use this form of speech? Seriously, I use it frequently so when I read "Does not" is the same as "Doesn't" so I read what you wrote "Does, not all people receive the reconciliation ring a bell?" as "Doesn't "all people receive the reconciliation" ring a bell?"

I try not to reverse what was said and assert someone said the opposite of what was said. This not a figure of speech, that is misrepresentation. My quote did not have quotation marks where you inserted them.

Basically all your questions implied the opposite of what I had rewritten. I provided an answer, then you asked another question, still implying the opposite of what I said. A whole parade of misunderstanding and misrepresentation. I just do not understand why, ignoring the possibility you were trying to show I was advocating Universalism.

 

[annsni]

No worries...they still have bible studies at the Yacht club...:laugh:

Actually, not yet. They prefer the psychic to come in but you never know!!

 

[annsni]

I try not to reverse what was said and assert someone said the opposite of what was said. This not a figure of speech, that is misrepresentation. My quote did not have quotation marks where you inserted them.

No - I put in the quotation marks to show you how I read your sentence.

"Doesn't" is short for "does not". I read your "does not" as "doesn't" I guess I was mistaken. I'm sorry - but realize I didn't do it because I was pre-programmed or anything. It's just that is how it read.