Book of Mormon is Christian?

Which ancient texts?

 

lookbeyond,

I'm sorry this took so long to get back to you, but I wanted to ask you some questions based on some things that you've said in various posts in this thread.

Your quotes or questions based on your quotes are in bold:

Simply put, because it adds to the gospel preached in the Bible and anything thing that adds to or contradicts the BIble is considered anathema.

The bigger question is why do Mormons consider the Bible to be incomplete?

Actually, Smith was killed while still in his prison cell. He tried to fight the mob off with a smuggled pistol.

Hardly an act in the tradition of the Biblical martyrs.

Please back this up with a non-Jewish source.

Please feel free to offer any non-LDS archeological or historical evidence of this.

The "other sheep" referred to in John 10:16 are Gentiles, not American indians.

 

Why thank you, I appreciate the complement it lowers my chances of being sucked into a cult.
Seriously, my point was for you try using sources outside of LDS journals and publications, because quite frankly they are going to be to biased to even be concidered credable. Secular sources have a better chance of being more unbiased and I mean that for both sides.

The quotes from Mosser only prove that Christians have been resting on their laurels for to long and it is time to get our act together. It does not prove the validity of the LDS faith, a good argument does not have to based on fact.

BTW I have been saying they are not crediable because of bias not intelligence.

I guess that means we are at an impasse because through study and by the Holy Spirit, I know beyond a doubt that the Book of Mormon is the Book of the Antichrist, because it adds to the gospel of Christ amongst other things. And I did address that in another post with facts not feelings.

[ September 08, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

Chemnitz:
I guess that means we are at an impasse because through study and by the Holy Spirit, I know beyond a doubt that the Book of Mormon is the Book of the Antichrist, because it adds to the gospel of Christ amongst other things. And I did address that in another post with facts not feelings.

Don:
You would be somewhat lonely in that position, my friend. I am sorry that we have reached an impasse. Make you a deal. When we both reach the other side, I will do what I can to look you up, and help you out at that time.

I hate communication on the Internet. It dissalows you to see the smile on my face as I respond to you. Not in a condescending way. To you, I am a sucked-in cult member who has been deceived by the anti Christ. To me, you are my brother, and I wish you the best.

Yours Sincerely,

Don Layton

 

Now then, on to my understanding of the true nature of Jesus Christ.

1. He is the literal Son of God. He is the Firstborn in the Spirit and the Only Begotten in the Flesh. (And yes, we do believe that He was begotten by the Father, not the Holy Ghost. And no, we do not believe that He was conceived in the flesh by sexual relations.)

2. He is preexistent and eternal. He is God from all eternity, by virtue and by right. However, He was created by the Father in the Spirit. (This, of course is a big difference that we have.) He did not live in bodily form until He was born of Mary.

3. He alone atoned for sin.

4. He is the second member of the Godhead. He is subordinate to the Father.

5. He is the Old Testament Jehovah-Yahweh.

6. He is Creator of all things.

7. He is, in a certain spiritual sense, the Elder brother of all of God's children. In this same sense, we are all brothers and sisters, and children of God.

8. He is the promised Messiah.

9. Salvation is only through Him and belief on Him. Our works are required to demonstrate our faith on Him, but are never sufficient alone.

10. He is the judge of all.

11. He lived a perfect, sinless life. He had the ability to sin, but did not.

12. He worked mighty miracles, all that the glory of God might be made manifest.

13. He suffered, was falsely accused, and was crucified by the hands of wicked men. He literally rose from the dead on the third day, being the firstfruits of the resurrection.

14. He lives today, and knows us.

15. He is love. He is light. He desires that none should perish, but that all of us should come unto Him and be saved.

16. He is the ONLY way to eternal life. Mohammed, Buddha, Confucious, and Joseph Smith do not have the ability to bestow eternal life.

17. He will come again, this time in anger and power, destroying the wicked.

18. He is Lord and King. He is Messiah. He is the great "I AM". He is God.

19. He is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but not in material. He is one in the sense that we are to be one with one another.

20. He taught the people of the Americas as well as others that we do not know of at this present time.

Well, this is a brief synopsis of my understanding of who Jesus is. Certainly, most of the above points we will agree on. There are also some that we will disagree on.

If you would like to select one, and go from there, please be my guest. This post has been my conviction. Documentation to follow a response.

Don

 

BTW, Smoke_Eater, you asked which ancient texts? I thought that any early Christian writings or texts would be interesting to consider. Nag Hammadi, the Dead Sea Scrolls, writings of the Early Christians and Jews, the Anti-Nicene Fathers, and so on.

Now I realize that there may be some debate as to the validity of some of these writings. There were heretical movements going on in the early church. I thought that we could address that as well.

Don

 

[ September 08, 2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Don Layton ]

 

Smokeater, You have sought to undermine the truth of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ upon the earth by your demands for evidence supporting all that we claim! When I say "non-issues" to me they are because the promised blessing of a witness by the Holy Ghost of truth has been given to me, and I know, by the faith that is required, that the Church of Jesus Christ, restored to the earth through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a fact and a truth, that I do not have to "prove" to anyone! If I should embark on such a task it would be fruitless, for the message falls on deaf ears to those who lack sufficient faith to investigate for themselves, having real intent to know for themselves, the truth of this claim! If one has a already pre-conceived notion that it can't be true because of anti-literature they have read, and they need hard evidence, and their ministers have so preached against the restoration and modern day revelation, then they deprive themselves of knowledge and understanding of truths revealed! The approach should be, not to prove it is false, but to learn if it is true! The evidence is there of it's truthfulness, but unless one's spirit is in tune with the Holy Ghost, it will never be shown the unbeliever. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. James 1:5-6 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
In faith, I have relied on the Lord to guide me....and I have not been disappointed in my search for truth! I have studied for myself, from within each religion studied, sources not anti-to any religion! I have studied the gospel as described in the Bible.....both the Old and New Testament.....I have read the Bible many times from cover to cover. I have read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover many times! Each time beautiful truths seem to become clearer to my understanding! Things I don't understand, I study until I do, and I never cast anything aside as false just because I can't explain it or don't understand it! For example....the thought came to me one day......Why was there a need for a Redeemer? My study in that regard gave me a profound appreciation for the Bible record, and for the Atonement of Jesus Christ and it's meaning and impact on my life! Another question.....in my early acquisition of religious knowledge was, why are there so many different religions? That quest for knowledge sent me back to the early teachings of the Savior to the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament......and my faith was rewarded with an understanding of the apostasy from the way of the Lord......the loss of priesthood authority.....the inquisitions......the denial of revelation to the earth through the Dark Ages.....I learned of the Dispensations of time since the first dispensation of Adam......down to the present or Last Dispensation of time when the gospel will be upon the earth for the last time, until the Savior Comes! I learned also of the Protestant movement, the Reformers and those who wanted to return to the basics of Christianity as taught from the Savior's lips! I also wanted to know how we got the Bible, and what it is! And a wealth of information was learned of how King James, who by the grace of God, preserved what we now cherish as the King James Version of the Bible, a collection of books, 66 books to be exact! I also learned that there were other books written and mentioned in the Bible but not included in this collection; Book of the Covenant; Book of the Wars of the Lord; Book of Jasher; Book of Statutes; Book of the Acts of Solomon; Books of Nathan and Gad; Book of Shemaiah; Book of Jehu; Acts of Uzziah, Written by Isaiah; Sayings of the Seers; Missing Epistles of Paul; Missing Epistle of Jude; Prophecies of Enoch! I learned of the attempt to destroy many of the writings of Early Christians......and found even a greater appreciation for King James and his divine guidance to preserve all that he could, that we might be blessed through possession of the Bible today! (and some of us actually read and study from it)
I have had numerous other questions concerning baptizm.....with all the different religions and methodology....which one was right? How does one acquire that authority, as John the Baptist?
Today, I continue to have questions.....and I continue in my quest for truth and understanding! And I wish I could parlay to you all that my efforts have given to me in understanding......but I can't! I believe it is something we must find for ourselves, through our diligence and desire to know truth! I will continue to share my testimony of the truths I have found, to those who have a desire to hear and learn. Truth needs no defense.....only faith of the unbeliever to discover it and embrace it! The Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon record, is the same Jesus Christ of the Bible......He is the Only Begotten Son of the Father, born in the flesh with body, parts, and passions! He died and was resurrected and appeared unto the twelve in body! And He returned to His Father who sent Him to the earth! And we will return to their presence in body form, just as they will be seen, when we are resurrected and if we receive a righteous judgement for our obedience to God and His Son, Jesus! When we see them, we shall be like them.....for we came forth from them as spiritual offspring to inhabit mortal bodies, to be tried and tested in our faith in them! As James stated so beautifully, Chap.1:2-3 "My brethren, count it al joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. Our faith will never be rewarded if we seek not the knowledge of truth, believing that we shall find it through our diligence and searching where it can be found........not from the mouths of the enemies of God!

 

Smokeater, You have sought to undermine the truth of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ upon the earth by your demands for evidence supporting all that we claim! When I say "non-issues" to me they are because the promised blessing of a witness by the Holy Ghost of truth has been given to me, and I know, by the faith that is required, that the Church of Jesus Christ, restored to the earth through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a fact and a truth, that I do not have to "prove" to anyone! If I should embark on such a task it would be fruitless, for the message falls on deaf ears to those who lack sufficient faith to investigate for themselves, having real intent to know for themselves, the truth of this claim! If one has a already pre-conceived notion that it can't be true because of anti-literature they have read, and they need hard evidence, and their ministers have so preached against the restoration and modern day revelation, then they deprive themselves of knowledge and understanding of truths revealed! The approach should be, not to prove it is false, but to learn if it is true! The evidence is there of it's truthfulness, but unless one's spirit is in tune with the Holy Ghost, it will never be shown the unbeliever. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. James 1:5-6 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
In faith, I have relied on the Lord to guide me....and I have not been disappointed in my search for truth! I have studied for myself, from within each religion studied, sources not anti-to any religion! I have studied the gospel as described in the Bible.....both the Old and New Testament.....I have read the Bible many times from cover to cover. I have read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover many times! Each time beautiful truths seem to become clearer to my understanding! Things I don't understand, I study until I do, and I never cast anything aside as false just because I can't explain it or don't understand it! For example....the thought came to me one day......Why was there a need for a Redeemer? My study in that regard gave me a profound appreciation for the Bible record, and for the Atonement of Jesus Christ and it's meaning and impact on my life! Another question.....in my early acquisition of religious knowledge was, why are there so many different religions? That quest for knowledge sent me back to the early teachings of the Savior to the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament......and my faith was rewarded with an understanding of the apostasy from the way of the Lord......the loss of priesthood authority.....the inquisitions......the denial of revelation to the earth through the Dark Ages.....I learned of the Dispensations of time since the first dispensation of Adam......down to the present or Last Dispensation of time when the gospel will be upon the earth for the last time, until the Savior Comes! I learned also of the Protestant movement, the Reformers and those who wanted to return to the basics of Christianity as taught from the Savior's lips! I also wanted to know how we got the Bible, and what it is! And a wealth of information was learned of how King James, who by the grace of God, preserved what we now cherish as the King James Version of the Bible, a collection of books, 66 books to be exact! I also learned that there were other books written and mentioned in the Bible but not included in this collection; Book of the Covenant; Book of the Wars of the Lord; Book of Jasher; Book of Statutes; Book of the Acts of Solomon; Books of Nathan and Gad; Book of Shemaiah; Book of Jehu; Acts of Uzziah, Written by Isaiah; Sayings of the Seers; Missing Epistles of Paul; Missing Epistle of Jude; Prophecies of Enoch! I learned of the attempt to destroy many of the writings of Early Christians......and found even a greater appreciation for King James and his divine guidance to preserve all that he could, that we might be blessed through possession of the Bible today! (and some of us actually read and study from it)
I have had numerous other questions concerning baptizm.....with all the different religions and methodology....which one was right? How does one acquire that authority, as John the Baptist?
Today, I continue to have questions.....and I continue in my quest for truth and understanding! And I wish I could parlay to you all that my efforts have given to me in understanding......but I can't! I believe it is something we must find for ourselves, through our diligence and desire to know truth! I will continue to share my testimony of the truths I have found, to those who have a desire to hear and learn. Truth needs no defense.....only faith of the unbeliever to discover it and embrace it! The Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon record, is the same Jesus Christ of the Bible......He is the Only Begotten Son of the Father, born in the flesh with body, parts, and passions! He died and was resurrected and appeared unto the twelve in body! And He returned to His Father who sent Him to the earth! And we will return to their presence in body form, just as they will be seen, when we are resurrected and if we receive a righteous judgement for our obedience to God and His Son, Jesus! When we see them, we shall be like them.....for we came forth from them as spiritual offspring to inhabit mortal bodies, to be tried and tested in our faith in them! As James stated so beautifully, Chap.1:2-3 "My brethren, count it al joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. Our faith will never be rewarded if we seek not the knowledge of truth, believing that we shall find it through our diligence and searching where it can be found........not from the mouths of the enemies of God!

 

lookbeyond, have you ever heard of white space?

 

White space??? Is it by Kolob?

[ September 13, 2002, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Don Layton ]

 

When one asks for evidence you say the truth is being undermined?? That is really a shame. Josh McDowell wrote a book called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict!" Have you read it? You ought to. The evidence of Biblical Christianity demands a verdict: that Jesus Christ is God incarnate; that He came as perfect God and perfect man to die for the sins of the world; that He rose again on the third day, and that all who believe on him will have forgiveness of sin and eternal life.

The evidence of Mormonism that demands a verdict also: It originated with a false prophet, has a book full of false teachings and historically incorrect events, and continues to disseminate false teachings through their literature and missionaries.

Yes we demand evidence, and you ought not to be outraged by such a demand!!
DHK

 

First, I believe in Christ, that He rose on the third day, and that He lives. So don't misunderstand my point here.

Are you really claiming that there is any evidence, outside of the same type of evidence that you flippantly dismiss from the LDS side, that Jesus rose on the third day? Where is the evidence?

There were a few "witnesses" who recorded that many people saw the risen Lord. However, to be consistent in our "truth criteria", and you quickly dismiss LDS testimony of the plates, angels and so on simply because they are LDS...and therefore biased, we must do the same with the early authors of the Bible. There must be a consistent standard of truth. Where is there ANY evidence outside of early Christianity that Jesus rose from the dead? If you MUST resort to Christian sources, we must be allowed to use the same, consistent standard in regard to witnesses of the restoration.

BTW, there is an answer to the question. But you probably won't like it. The Holy Spirit testifies of all truth. That is the mission of that member of the Godhead. So it is with the risen Lord. So it is with Joseph and the restoration.

 

How can we believe mormonism to be the truth when its teachings on the Godhead go against scripture. I mean you guys teach that there are three gods (F.Parry Joseph Smith's Teachings ): Which plainly contradicts Dt 6:4, that God was a man which Scripture never speaks of and denies, that Jesus only died so that we may enter the eternal realm so that we can have a chance to become gods ourselves which is also a contradiction of Scripture.

 

The Jews claim that YOU are polytheistic. You believe in the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost. Those are three. But they are also one. LDS also believe in one God, according to the Biblical model in John 14 and 17. There is no discrepency except in your mind.

Don't change the subject. The claim was made that there was evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Everything in Christianity hinges on the resurrection. If we are to be consistent in our demands of evidence, you must be able to demonstrate from non Christian sources that there is any hard evidence. Or do you just accept it on faith?

[ September 15, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Don Layton ]

 

The discrepency is not in my mind, you teach that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three different gods with seperate divine essenses who just happen to agree on things (oh lest I forget they were all men before they became dieties in their own right). Trinitarians teach that there is only one God with one divine essense with three persons not three gods as lds teaches. I am not changing the subject, I challenged you on the subject of Christ sometime ago.

And nothing is stoping you from using recognized secular sources, so stop whining.

BTW the Jews missed the point so what they say is a moot point.

 

________________________________________________

Chemnitz, your love just radiates. By this shall all men know if ye are my disciples...I did not intend to offend you. I'm sorry to get you so worked up! It was not intentional.

Once again, if you use John 14 and 17 as models, you can understand the LDS theology on the Godhead and how three are one. Rather than get into another topic altogether, and according to your previous statement of challenging me on the subject of Christ, go for it. But I still would like you, or anyone else where is the evidence of the claims of Christianity? Where is there any evidence of the resurrection? Show me. I am not being a wiseguy here. I am not being argumenitive. I am asking a real question.

BTW, like the Jews before you, you also have missed the point. In fact, that is my point. Thanks for making it for me.

 

Ok, Don, tell us how do John 14 and 17 teach that there are three gods in the godhead?

 

Do me a favor, would you? Will you carefully consider this answer, which comes directly from the KJV of the Bible. In most cases, I have even included the text, rather than simply refer to the passages.

The Bible teaches that God is one. Among other passages, in John 10:30 learn that the Father and the Son are one. Yet in many other passages, there is a clear distinction in the beings themselves. For example:

John 14:28 Jesus proclaims that the Father is greater than Jesus is.

John 17 The great intercessory prayer. Jesus prays to the Father, not as an example of prayer, but for real needs.

John 16:7 The Comfortor would come when Jesus went away. "If I depart, I will send Him unto you."

Matthew 3:16,17 Jesus is in the water, the Holy Ghost comes down and lights upon him like a dove, and the voice of the Father comes from heaven, testifying that Jesus is His Son. (See also John 12:28,29)

Gen. 1:26,27 "Let us make man in our image" demonstrates a plurality.

Matt. 12:31,32 Sins against the Holy Ghost and against the Son are distinguishable.

John 8:17,18 Jesus refers to the law, wherein it states that the testimony of two men is true. He then states that He is one that bears testimony and the Father is another. Note: If they were not two beings, they would not have satisfied the Jewish law, requiring the testimony of two men. Thus, the point that Jesus was making would have been pointless.

Revelation 1:6 Jesus has made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.

John 20:17 Jesus ascends to the Father.

Acts 7:55,56 Stephen, being martyred, sees the Son on the right hand of God. Hard to miss this one, unless you refuse to take the Bible literally here.

For the sake of "white space", I won't include some of the other verses in the Bible that clearly demonstrate a plurality and a seperateness with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

How do LDS believe that there is one God, yet clearly seperate and distinguishable beings? This is a clear and simple doctrine, for the Lord Himself gave the answer. It is found in John 14 and 17, in several passages, in context, and it is clear. They are "one" in the very sense that we are to be one with them. This is not so difficult to understand. Consider these verses:

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:17
[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:10-11
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

John 17:20-23
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Clearly the Lord was not praying that we all become of one essence. We are to be united as are the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, in love and purpose and perfection.Yet Jesus Himself claims that as we become one, we will be one in the same manner that He and His Father are one.

Now, I have answered your question. I am rather certain that you will not now run out and ask for baptism in the LDS faith. But I have demonstrated that the LDS position on the Godhead is Biblical. Will you now answer the question that I have asked? Where is the external evidence of the resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ? I am still very willing to answer this question, for it does have one.

Be blessed!

Don

 

Actually you only proved that your theologians are good at picking and choosing what they like and removing it from its context. You ignored many verses that state that they are one in essense namely Dt 6 and Jn 1. You also tried to make a case for him be lower than the Father but ignored the fact that Phil. Jesus only humbled himself for a time.

[ September 16, 2002, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]