Book of Mormon is Christian?

[blackbird]

I can take the Holy Bible--66 books of Scripture--and can find my way to Almighty God through the shed blood of Jesus. The Bible tells me that Jesus is Almighty God/Jehovah/Elohim in human flesh! The Bible is a compass that will point to Jesus everytime! Just like that needle in the compass will point North everytime!

I can't take the book of morman and find nothing but spiritual "Chicken Scratch!" Its a road leading to nowhere!

 

[Frank]

Lookbeyond:
I have read the BOM. I have one family member( inlaw) who is a Mormon. My wife is an X-Mormon. The BOM is dissimilar with the Bible in many places.
Consider the following:
1. ALL the truth wqs promised to the 12.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Ormond,

Tell me, where can you find verse in the Book of Mormon saying that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, died on the Cross near Jerusalem, and he risen from the dead??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ormond, Sorry! I am asking question to Lookbeyond about Book of Mormon.

lookbeyond,

I ask you a question, where can you find verse in the Book of Mormon saying that jesus eas born in Bethelhem, died near Jerusalem, and risen from the dead??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[ormond]

OK, thanks but Lookbeyond is better than me so..

I think Book of Mormon don't found it BUT it live South America only
but Jesus come in South America last about 34 AD only that Book of Mormon
wrote this. BUT BoM can't wrote thdre Jerusalem (8,000 miles away) so.

Book of Mormon is NOT Christian key.
Book of Mormon have priesthood key. how? (Holy Ghost work something)

So Bible (NT) have Christian key. how? ( Jesus Saved spirit work something)

Amen
I think better you go ask Mormon LDS Missionary
before good pray yourself. ok? If not good pray (or Lazy)
that Missionary will not right person.

So but best web:
http://www.mormon.org

[ September 02, 2002, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: ormond ]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Ormond,

You said, Jesus came to South America in 34 A.D.

Is Jesus, a Jew??

Do Jews lived in South America during year 34 A.D.??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[ormond]

Do Jews lived in South America during year 34 A.D.??
No, Nephites and Lamanites lived in South America. this not Jew lived!
BUT look like Jew almost same Nephites (late generation).

Ormond
PS why Lookbeyond not here so long time.

 

[Frank]

Lookbeyond:
I wish to respond to the Bom and the Bible. As I said previously,I know relatives who are Mormon. My wife is an X. There are numerous reasons why she is not Mormon.
1.Logic. Things that are different are not the same. If the Bom, were another testament of Jesus Christ. It could not be the truth as things that are the same would agree. If the Bom is harmonious with the Bible, and it is not, we do not need it for we already have the Bible. If the Bom teaches more than the Bible, and it does, It says too much. Rev. 22:18,19, Deut. 4:2 I Cor. 4:6. If the Bom, does not teach as much as the Bible,it say too little. Rev.22:18,19, Deut 4:2, I Cor. 4:6. If it is the same as the Bible, and it is not,we do not need it as we already have the Bible.
2. Rationality. The Bible was written over a time span of 1600 years by 40 men, with different vocabularies and stations in life. Yet, they agree in their teachings. There are over 5,000 New Testament. This is more documentation than the works of the Shakesphere. Luke, the writer of the book of Acts, is accurate in every detail as to the geography of the land of the Bible. Secular academics consult the book of Acts for it's veracity concerning the land. The book of Acts has been challenged and still is the most accurate view of the Holy Land.
The historicity of the characters of the Bible have been validated by historians. Ther are some 14 historians that verify the Christ alone.
On the other hand, one may not find any golden plates.
One may not find valid historical evidence of Christ in America. One may not find evidence for the people in America purported by the Bom. Ex. Nephites, Alma.
In Fact the first mention of these names may be found in a NOVEL book entitiled Manuscript Found by Solomon Spaulding. This unpublished work was present some 30 years before the Bom.
The historicity of the characters of the Bom Nephites, Alma, Lehites are not validated by any creditable sources.
The Bom contains plagarisms of the Bible 38 pages.
Whole chapters are quoted Isiah 11,14,21,48,50,52, 54;Mal.3, Mat. 5,6,7: II Cor. 13. Braden Kelly debate page 153. The poet Shakesphere is used as are excerpts from Pope's Essays on Man, The Westminister Confession of Faith.
The historicity of America as proclaimed by the Bom is absent. Consider the following:
Bancroft, Prescott and others in Conquest of Mexico. Desolis,London England,1735. History of America,Robertson,London 1777.Origin of the Tribes and Nations of America, Barton, Philadelphia, 1797.
The witnesses bolster the case for the fraud of the Bom. Consider the following: John Spaulding, Solomon Spaulding's sister in-law, Henry Lake,business partner of Spaulding,James Jefferies, Rev. John Winter, M.D. all concur about the authorship of manuscript found being the work of Spaulding and the characters Nephites, Alma. and Lehites are found in this work prior to the BOM.
The Three Witnesses for the Bom Cowdery, Whitmer, Harris, ALL departed the Mormon church. They all denied the veracity to what they had previously testified. See True Origin of Polygamy by Shook, pp 49-54, 26-38, 44. See also Joseph Smith Times and Seasons, Vol. 1, pg. 80. Joseph Smith states and I quote, "About this time there were several persons living in the far west,who were cut off the church, these characters were studiously engaged in circulating false and slanderous reports against the saints to stir up our enemies to drive us form our homes, and enjoy the spoils together. Thye are as follows: Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and others."
I will post concerning the doctrine at a later time.

 

[lookbeyond]

I wil not debate the praddle and long disputed claims made in the various posts regarding the Book of Mormon!
To answer one question....I am not very young, pushing 62! I was not raised in the faith, my father was Catholic....I attended the Lutheran Church for five years in my early childhood, received some of my early training in the Bible from the Baptists, fwhich I have appreciated very much! My faith in God to lead me to all truth, has allowed me to arrive where I am at the present moment in my understanding of truth! I did not search the writings by enemies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.....I went right to the sources within the Churches I studied........I have no arguement with any other religion, nor do I debate their doctrine! Simply put, I state the belief and doctrines of the restored Church of Jesus Christ! If I am accused of anything otherwise, it is unfortunate for those so accusing, that they cannot see the sincerity in my expression of faith in the restoration and the Prophet Joseph Smith, and all of the suceeding prophets and aspostles so ordained in this last dispensation of time! We do not have to argue the tenets of the gospel.....if you cannot see or believe what is written.....and find need to defend and seek to destroy through unchristian like behavior, then that certainly is your free will and offering to the Lord.....and that which is spoken of by those who seek to destroy "mormonism" by false claims etc., will come to naught! Those self-same claims have been made since the very beginning, inspired by the darkness of unbelief.....and they will continue, undoubtedly, but will eventually be held accountable before the Lord! And those who have perpetrated the lies and falsehoods insomuch as to lead others astray will have, likewise, an accounting to make before the Lord! The Church will continue to roll forth until it fills the whole earth and the testimony of the Lord will be felt and heard as His wrath is poured out upon the earth as a final testimony of His Church and Kingdom on the earth!
The Book of Mormon is the word of God, as spoken to the prophets on this the American Continent, to stand as a witness that Jesus is the Christ, together with the Bible, which was written on the Eastern Continent! God is the author of all truth spoken in both volumes!
Lehi, left Jerusalem, 600 B.C. commanded by the Lord to take his family into the wilderness prior to the destruction of Jerusalem! Yes, they were of Jewish descent! They did as the Lord commanded, and were instructed to build a ship to cross the mighty ocean....and were guided to the Americas! And God did not desert them.....but continued to instruct them! They had with them the Brass plates of Laban, which obviously contained many of the early writings of Isaiah and other writings of Biblical writers of the Old Testament! The origin of the American Indian is described within the pages of the Book of Mormon.....and yes, they are of Jewish descent! That ought to give rise to some speculation.....but it is a truth that needs no defense! That Christ appeared on the American continent in 34 A.D. is a truth recorded in 3 Nephi. And in John 10:16, the Lord is speaking "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." And further in 3 Nephi 16:1-20 Christ is teaching and telling of "other sheep" which were not of this land (America) nor of Jerusalem....."For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them. "But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that they may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them. " And I command you that you shall write these sayings after I am gone, that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the other tribes whom they know not of, that their sayins which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer. "And then will I gather them in from the four quarters of the earth; and then will I fulfil the covenant which the Father hath made unto all the people of the house of Israel. "And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father. "Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them."
It is by the Holy Ghost, I know that God lives, that His Son Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world, and that He has restored His Church to the earth! And for the last time will the message of the gospel go forth unto all the world.....and they who are the Master's, will hear and know His voice and will follow the prophets and apostles of today! The unbelievers crucified Christ, even so, they crucify Him today because they are hardened in their hearts by the ministers of the day who speak evil against His Servants, for the message they bring of the gospel being restored to the earth in it's fullness, bringing all the fragmented truths together into one great whole!

 

[Frank]

Lookbeyond:
At this time, i will respond to the teachings of the Lds as it pertains to apostles. In Mat. 19:28, the Bible says, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me , in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. This promise is made to the 12 in about the 33 year of life of Christ. It specifies 12 tribes twelve thrones. There is no room in heaven for any more apostles.

Furthermore, in about Ad. 90-96 there were men claiming apostleship. These men were tried and found to be LIARS. Rev. 2:2. How were they tried or proven to be false?
The Word of God requires all APOSTLES to have the following credentials.
1. They must have been with him from the BEGINNING OF JOHN'S Baptism. Acts 1:22.
2. They must have seen him AFTER HIS RESURRECTION. The Word of God teaches us Paul was the LAST to have seen as one born out of due time. I Cor. 15:8.
3. Jesus promised the miraculous power to His apostles. John 14:26,15:26;16;13, Lk, 24:49,50, Acts 2;1,38. The whole truh was delivered. Acts 20:27.
The LDS apostles have nothing to proclaim that is true from the divine God of Heaven. One should listen to the 12 Jesus appointed, not the LDS apostles. I John 4:6.

4.Christians are to follow the example of the 12 in the first century. Acts 2:42;20:7. We are to hold fast the form of words they delivered. II Tim. 1;13 and the traditions they delivered. II Thes. 2:15, I Cor. 11:1. There is no Authority from Christ for any more apostles today.

5.Lds apostles do not perform miracles, and they cannot perform biblical miracles any way, in the presence of the unbeliever as the true apostles. Mk. 16;17,18, Acts 3:1-10. Jesus said the purpose of the miraculous was to FORM FAITH. JOhn 20:30, 31.

Finally, the LDS church actually has 15 apostles. They have the quorum of the 12, Two who sit at the feet of the President. The President himself is an " exalted apostle." There is no AUTHORITY FROM JESUS FOR SUCH A PRACTICE. And, Jesus has ALL authority. Mat. 28: 18-20.
I will discuss claims of Mormon Inspiration at a later date.

 

[Mike McK]

A good essay that outlines some of the differences between Mormonism and Christianity:

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/christianorcult.htm

http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm

http://www.carm.org/lds/compare.htm

also see:

http://www.carm.org/lds/bom_look.htm

http://www.carm.org/lds/diff_questions.htm

Personal Freedom Outreach also has some excellent things on Mormonism.

Mike

 

[lookbeyond]

Interesting how the webmaster edits my telephone number where a free copy of the Book of Mormon may be requested, but it is allowed to post all the anti-mormon sites! Satan certainly rules where the blind seek to lead the blind.....I suppose this will be edited out also, but I do not see the fair play here if the truth be hidden and the evilmongers are allowed access! Come now! Stand up you honest seekers of truth and be counted worthy to receive it....and fear not where it may be found! I appreciate so much the scriptures that describe those who will speak evil fo those things in the latter days that shall come forth, because of the hardness of their hearts and the blindness with which they speak having itching ears and quick to believe a lie.......led by the cunning craftiness of man-made doctrines, frearful of the truth because it comes forth to destroy all the fables and false traditions of the fathers....dead branches from a dead tree, who long ago lost the life giving authority of the priesthood of God! The branches come and they go, they whither and die for lack of the life giving authority of God, who gives life and light unto the world.....not just the Eastern Continent......
and to answer the question...."so John is wrong?" John the Revelator is whom you speak apparently, and no, he was not wrong! Anyone who adds to or takes from the revelations of his book shall be acursed! Check out the chronology of the Bible......Deutronomy speaks a similar message......don't change the Gospel of Jesus Christ.....the Bible, you will remember, is an assemblage of writings, and does not, by any means contain all of the writings written by the writers or observers of Christ's dealings! The myopic vision of modern christianity limits the God I know.....who is by no means limited in His ability to command and to expound and to cause to be written records of His dealings with His children here upon the earth! The Bible is by no means complete and perfect in it's content, having passed through the hands of many who would change the doctrine and the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ to suit their own purposes.....hence we have so many versions of the Bible today, translated numerous times, losing many of the plain and simple truths, and yet we are expected to blindly accept the tradition of christianity that it is all that is needed......yet we have massive confusion in the world today! Well, God did not intend for us to remain in a state of confusion and has therefore foretold of the fall of the great and abominable whore of all the earth.......and great will be the fall of it!!!! Why, how and who is the great whore of all the earth, I won't even take a guess, but I feel sure it will be all those who have corrupted the doctrine, changed the ordinances and turned from the God of Israel, our God and His Son Jesus Christ, and heaped to themselves gods that are not gods, with no power to save, who have adopted idol worship, and lost sight of the power and Gift of the Holy Ghost who is to witness to the sincere seeker, all truth!

 

[Abiyah]

Wow, Lookbeyond! What did you expect? You
are on a Baptist board, supported by and for
Baptists who allowed others to come here, at
Baptist expense. Why should those who finan-
cially support this site advertise your sites?

I hope that I did not demean you in any way to
think that you were very young. It is just that
some of the things you write made me think
so. The thing is, though, that I do not read a
lot of your posts because of their lack of para-
graphing. My eyes are not real great, and too
little white space bothers them.

I will continue praying for you.

 

[lookbeyond]

Abiyah, sorry for the lack of paragraphing! I don't think you are interested in what I write anyway......and yes, it isn't any wonder my contributions here are not received well, I didn't expect them to be argumentative, just informative......when I read the "Non-Baptist Doctrines and an invitation to participate," I just assumed it is like other forums where the freedom to speak openly and freely does not pose a threat to anyone.....but there is a defensive threat and spirit of fear present on this thread, and I will now absent myself from it, lest I be accused of being less than polite! I have not bantered anyone's specific beliefs, only stated my own.....I have not sought to attack anyone personally or their beliefs! We can choose to disagree and still be civil, or at least I though we could.......but I guess not in the Baptist community, where I have always felt comfortable because I believe they are good, honest people, who truly love the Lord! I have never doubted that! I am sorry for my conduct if it has been offensive, and less than polite and respectful! I am the minority of one who said the Book of Mormon is Christian! I will hold fast to that honored position!

bye, bye all!

 

[ormond]

Mormon is NOT Christian!!!
Mormon is priesthood key!!!! but like Christian answer
but Christian key? hell no!.

Bye Bye All!
thanks for discuss Lookbeyond (non-accept Jesus?)

Bro Rockwell Butler
Ormond (accept Jesus 17years!)
PS I'm like RLDS

[ September 03, 2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: ormond ]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Ormond,

RLDS???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
Interesting how the webmaster edits my telephone number where a free copy of the Book of Mormon may be requested

I don't want to put words in admin's mouth, but I think the reasoning behind deleting the phone number is that that would be considered advertising, which is against the TOS that you agreed to when you joined.

Given that a call for the book automatically puts you on the list for a visit from Mormon missionaries and, up until very recently (they may still do this but I don't think so) people who called for the book were counted as members of the church in order to boost membership numbers, I have no problem with their deleting the phone number.

Look, you came to an outspokenly Christian site trying to push a notoriously non-Christian religion. You couldn't have really thought that they would let it go.

I don't always agree with some of the editorial decisions here and I say so when the need arises, but in this case, I think admin was right.

Read your TOS again.

The bottom line is that you still haven't explained why, if the BOM is true, Mormonism teaches a different Gospel and,if LDS leadership are really apostles and prophets of Christ, they preach a different Gospel.

Not to mention why Smith's "phrophecies" did not come to pass. How many prophetic predictions must you get wrong before you're considered a false prophet?

I'm also curious to know why no non-LDS archeologists have found any archeological evidence to back up the claims made in the BOM and why there's no non-LDS historical evidence to back up the claims made in the BOM.

There are plenty of non-Christian archeological and historical evidences to back up the Bible.

I'd also like to hear your take on why, until relatively recently in Mormon history, blacks were denied the priesthood.

The Bible and the BOM contradict each other in too many important areas for me to believe the BOM.

http://www.irr.org/mit/bombible.html

Earlier, you said that Abiyah had misunderstood certain Mormon doctrines. May I ask which ones, specifically, and why you feel she has misunderstood.

Also, what was it that convinced you, personally to become a Mormon?

Mike

[ September 04, 2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[ONENESS]

Ok, I guess I am kind of jumping in the middle of things here, and I hope that I dont say somethings that have already been said.

I met two young men that were walking around knocking doors in my parents community. I was at my dads house at the time and I was able to talk with them. They wrote down my number and gave me a call about a week later.

since then we have had many nights that we have been able to study and share diffrent things. They are in the process of doing a 6 lesson study with me on the book of mormon.

There are somethings about these people that we need to learn a lesson from. They dedicate 2 years of their lives to knocking doors, witnessing, and breaking bread with in the homes. I admire them for that. They do not have a t.v. they do not have video games, but during their two years they do one thing. And that is witness.

I have let them know that I will not beleive the book of Mormon for one reason. They said thats ok. So I still let them come in my home and share with me what they beleive. In doing this it has opened up many doors for me to show them what the word of God says.

The only reason why the book of Mormon does not appeal to me is b/c in the bible it says

Gal 1:8 But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed
9 As we said before, sosay I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The bible cleary tells us that if an angel from heaven preach any other gospel let him be accursed.

Another thing that I find strange is their temples. By all means they probably have the most beautiful temples in the world, but they only believe that certain people can enter into b/c they are holy and no unclean thing shall enter in. But isnt that why the veil was tore into? Now by the power of the Holy Ghost we are made clean.

But far as my friends go they are great. They have been comeing to our prayer meetings and they came with us to our family day at the park monday, and I will be going with them to their little outing the 13th.

I dont beleive we can ever win someone by telling them they are wrong. The best way to win them is to hang out with them and let them see that you are right.

God bless

 

[lookbeyond]

Mike I must respond to you....and ask one question. What was the gospel preached by the apostles of old!
1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by immersion by those in authority for the remission of sins.
4. Confirring of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those with proper authority.
5. The ordinance of the Sacrament, the emblems of the sacrifice of the Savior..."this do in Remberance of me" Another benefit of modern day revelation that clarifies the prayers given at this sacred holy ordinance we are privileged to participate in weekly. The prayers upon the bread, are exacting! Found in the Doctrine & Covenants Sec 20:77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witnss unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to ber with them, Amen.
And the prayer for blessing the bread, Verse 79. O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Each time we partake of the Sacrament, it is a renewal of our baptismal covenant we have made with the Lord.

6. The sealing power of Peter...."whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven." Temple ordinances.....marriage for eternity! A level of worthiness is required, but no one who is deemed so worthy is denied access to Temple blessings. One of the benefits of modern day revelation from God to aid us in our understanding of this wonderful blessing of families being eternal, under the covenant of marriage made in the Holy Temple! We are not perfect, and are not expected to be perfect to enter the Temple. It is by Temple attendance we learn those things that can lead us to perfection, through Christ and His redeeming love for His children.
Solomon built temples......baptism for the dead was practiced and was mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:29 Mal.4:5-6 Isa. 24:22 Isa. 42:6-7 Psalm 16:9-10 Jesus prescribed the conditions of salvation in John 3:5 Mark 16:15

Again before we dispute the Gospel, we should know what the Gospel of Jesus Christ was....what it has evolved to in modern christianity, and what it really is!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
Mike I must respond to you....and ask one question.

But you're not responding to me. Not one of your following statements answers any of my questions.

I don't think it's fair of you to ignore my questions and then try to question me.

You answer mine and I'll answer yours.

Seems only fair, right?

Mike