Book of Mormon is Christian?

[Johnv]

There are many positive Christian ideals that are found in the book of Mormon. But the Judeo-Christian does not accept the book as divinely inspired. Let's assume for the sake of arguement that the Book of Mormon was penned by Joseph Smith. Let's assume that the stories in the Book of Mormon are fictional. Does that make it rubbish? No. It's still good reading, and I think any person, including the Christian, can learn a lot from reading it. If you're afraid to read it because it may compromise your faith, then maybe you don't have enough faith.

I find it interesting how common it is for Christians to only take what they've heard from others bashing the writings of Mormons, Islam, Confucious, and others, without taking the time to learn about it on their own. Yet we Christians spend millions of hours annually reading things like Cosmopolitan and the National Enquirer. I personally would put those two publications on the list of evil writings first.

It's so much easier for us to brand what we choose not to understand as evil or satanic.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
Mike I must respond to you....and ask one question. What was the gospel preached by the apostles of old!
1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by immersion by those in authority for the remission of sins.
4. Confirring of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those with proper authority.
5. The ordinance of the Sacrament, the emblems of the sacrifice of the Savior..."this do in Remberance of me" Another benefit of modern day revelation that clarifies the prayers given at this sacred holy ordinance we are privileged to participate in weekly. The prayers upon the bread, are exacting! Found in the Doctrine & Covenants Sec 20:77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witnss unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to ber with them, Amen.
And the prayer for blessing the bread, Verse 79. O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Each time we partake of the Sacrament, it is a renewal of our baptismal covenant we have made with the Lord.

6. The sealing power of Peter...."whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven." Temple ordinances.....marriage for eternity! A level of worthiness is required, but no one who is deemed so worthy is denied access to Temple blessings. One of the benefits of modern day revelation from God to aid us in our understanding of this wonderful blessing of families being eternal, under the covenant of marriage made in the Holy Temple! We are not perfect, and are not expected to be perfect to enter the Temple. It is by Temple attendance we learn those things that can lead us to perfection, through Christ and His redeeming love for His children.
Solomon built temples......baptism for the dead was practiced and was mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:29 Mal.4:5-6 Isa. 24:22 Isa. 42:6-7 Psalm 16:9-10 Jesus prescribed the conditions of salvation in John 3:5 Mark 16:15

Again before we dispute the Gospel, we should know what the Gospel of Jesus Christ was....what it has evolved to in modern christianity, and what it really is!

I am confused, are you replying from my post? Or one from Mike?

 

[blackbird]

Back during WW2 the Germans initiated a plan called Operation Griffin--does anyone on this board know what was involved??!

The German High Command combed through the rolls of their Army personnel and found men there who looked like Americans, talked and walked like Americans. Then they stole American vehicles(jeeps, trucks, tanks, etc.) Then they stripped dead Americans of their uniforms. They then dressed these German soldiers like Americans. They then infiltrated American lines. You can just about guess what happens next.

Just so when these Mormans come over for Bible study!

 

[lookbeyond]

Blackbird, Truth is feared by those who thirst after knowledge and have been taught the traditions of designing men in all sincerity, yet are too fearful to fall into the hands of the Lord, as did Paul, in coming to a knowledge of truth!

And to the gentleman who spoke fearlessly of the Book of Mormon as being good reading for the true Christian, thank you....and may you find as many pleasurable hours reading from this translation of ancient records, by the Prophet Joseph Smith, who gave his life in testimony of it's truthfulness! If this record is not true....it can do no harm.....if it is as I believe true, then it can enlighten and bring greater understanding of gospel truths to all who so read it with an eye of faith, calling upon the Lord to know of it's truthfulness, through the witness of the Holy Ghost. Again, thank you for your kind response.....a person without fear! I once heard a definition of fear......faith in the devil! I believe as we trust in God, we can be brought to know all truth!

 

[lookbeyond]

Oneness, I was responding to Mike's post. Thank you for being kind to those two missionaries.......the world is filled with fear and hatred towards that which they know very little, and it is nice that you are open and willing to share with them........I have had three of my children serve as missionaries, one in Brazil, one in Spain, and another in Connecticut! I myself served in Denmark....and was always grateful for a listening ear or anyone who was willing to share dialogue in a friendly spirit of love and learning! It seems somewhere I have read we should be kind to everyone, for we may not know when we might have entertained angels sent from heaven!!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
...and may you find as many pleasurable hours reading from this translation of ancient records, by the Prophet Joseph Smith, who gave his life in testimony of it's truthfulness!

I reapeat my previous question: If Joeseph Smith was a prophet of God, why were so many of his prophecies just plain wrong?

If this record is not true....it can do no harm...

Actually, false doctrine can do a great deal of harm. That's why God commands us to stay away from it.

if it is as I believe true, then it can enlighten and bring greater understanding of gospel truths

How can it do this when so much of it contradicts the Gospel?

to all who so read it with an eye of faith, calling upon the Lord to know of it's truthfulness, through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

The problem with this is that we would still have to check it out in light of the Bible to know whether or not it really is from the Holy Ghost.

We're commanded by God not to rely on things such as a "burning in the bosom" to determine truth.

Mike

[ September 04, 2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Chemnitz]

Does a poll determine truth? Of those voting, how many have read the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ? How could this great book preserved by God, to come forth in these times as a Second Witness for Christ be deemed "not Christian?" I challenge those of you who so claim this volume of scripture is not of God, to judge it by your own study and reading of it's text, and then following the admonition found in Moroni 10: 3-5.

No the poll does not determine the truth but what it does is show that the majority of the people on this board know the truth about the book of mormon. I have a copy of the book of mormon and have read it to some extent and found it lacking.

 

[lookbeyond]

Mike, just to set the record straight, "people who called for the book were counted as members of the church in order to boost membership numbers,"
A telephone call does not take the place of baptism in The Church of Jesus Christ, of latter-day Saints.....we believe in baptism by immersion, just as taught by the Savior! (by those in authority to so administer this ordinance.....just as the Apostles of old)

With regard to your question regarding the archealogical evidences.......just take a trip to Can Cun, Mexico, and read of the early civilizations that were on this continent in our history books........there is ample evidence of these people spoken of in the Book of Mormon, translated from Gold Plates, by the Prophet Joseph Smith!
Mike, I challenge you to write such a record using all the research technology available to you regarding these ancient civilizations, and complete it in less than 60 days, telling of their dealings with God, their wars, their periods of righteousness and unrighteousness.....don't forget the Jaredites who came 2200 BC, about the time of the Tower of Babel..........and let's see how well you do! Joseph translated the Gold plates by the power of God, he had no formal education, and no reference libraries to use, and he had not traveled the world.....He was not the writer of these records......he only translated them! You might try reading Alma 32.....and learn a valuable lesson on faith......and 2 Nephi 29 talks about those who scoff at the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.....a prophesy you fulfill, adding one more stone to the foundation of my faith in the Book of Mormon's integrity! For that I thank you!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
Mike, just to set the record straight, "people who called for the book were counted as members of the church in order to boost membership numbers,"
A telephone call does not take the place of baptism in The Church of Jesus Christ, of latter-day Saints.....we believe in baptism by immersion, just as taught by the Savior! (by those in authority to so administer this ordinance.....just as the Apostles of old)

Ummm, OK.

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other but OK.

With regard to your question regarding the archealogical evidences.......just take a trip to Can Cun, Mexico, and read of the early civilizations that were on this continent in our history books...

If you re-read the question, I specified "non-LDS" sources.

.....there is ample evidence of these people spoken of in the Book of Mormon, translated from Gold Plates, by the Prophet Joseph Smith!

Right. It's been shown that much of Smith's writings were plagerized, his prophecies were failures and he, himself was not a man of good moral character.

The BOM was written long afterward. I would really like to see some non-LDS sources.

Mike, I challenge you to write such a record using all the research technology available to you regarding these ancient civilizations, and complete it in less than 60 days, telling of their dealings with God, their wars, their periods of righteousness and unrighteousness.....don't forget the Jaredites who came 2200 BC, about the time of the Tower of Babel..........and let's see how well you do!

No, thank you. I quit taking dares in fourth grade.

The issue isn't what I could or couldn't do, but what Joseph Smith has done.

Joseph translated the Gold plates by the power of God, he had no formal education, and no reference libraries to use, and he had not traveled the world.....He was not the writer of these records......he only translated them!

Well, whoever did write them sure didn't know much about history, archeology or the Bible.

You might try reading Alma 32.....and learn a valuable lesson on faith...

OK, I've read it. There were some nice things in there but I don't see how it answers any of the questions you've been asked. I still prefer to get my understanding of faith from Romans 10:17.

...and 2 Nephi 29 talks about those who scoff at the coming forth of the Book of Mormon...

And Galatians 1:8-9 talks about those who scoff at the Gospel by adding to it.

I know which one I would be more afraid of violating.

..a prophesy you fulfill, adding one more stone to the foundation of my faith in the Book of Mormon's integrity! For that I thank you!

Actually, it's clearly written so as to be a self fulfilling prophecy. A self fulfilling prophecy isn't really much of a prophecy at all.

 

[lookbeyond]

Sorry your mind is closed to any reasoning.....and the history books I spoke of were not by LDS authors......so why don't you go prove the Book of Mormon is true.......or disprove it by your own personal research.....it won't happen and that is o.k.....when we meet in heaven, and I am sure we will, I will surely reach out to you with my covictions and desire to share with you things I know to be true......truth never changes and will always be no matter how you perceive it. You have not given any specifics of Joseph Smith's unfulfilled prophecies.......none the less, he was a prophet of God and we have a Prophet of God standing at the head of our Church today who receives revelation just as did the Apostles and Prophets of old........who changed the organization of the Church? Who reestablished it? Apostles and Prophets were the foundation upon which The Church of Jesus Christ was built! Do you believe in living apostles and revelation from God today?

 

[Frank]

Lookbeyond:
No, to the last two questions you asked concernig living apsotles and modern day revelation.
The Bible teaches that inorder to be an apsotle one must meet the following:
1. Be with Christ form the beginning of John's Baptism. Acts 1:22.
2. Must see the Resurrected Christ. Paul was the LAST TO SEE HIM as one born out of due time. I Cor.15:8.
3. He must perform miracles. II Cor. 12:12. These miracles were to form faith in those who disbelieve. John 20:30,31, Acts 3:1-10. He must preach a confirmed message by the miraculous power. Mk 16:17,18,20.
4. They must see the kingdom come with power. Mk. 9:1, Acts 2:1-4,38,47.
5. Men who claim to be apostles today are Liars as they were in the first century. Rev. 2:2. One must have the credentials to be an apostle. NNE meets these qualifications.
6. Jesus promised the 12 they would sit on 12 thrones judging the tribes of Israel. Mat. 19:28. This is a definitive number. Where are all these others going to sit?

 

[Frank]

Lookbeyond:
The promise of miraculous knowledge ended with the completion of the all sufficient New Testament. I Cor. 13: 8-13. This was need to help the church to mature. Eph. 4:11-16. This revelation was for the 12 who were qualified to deliver the revelation. SEE previous post. The 12 were the ones promised reveltion of ALL the truth. John 16:13. Again, mormon apostles prophets fail the divine test of apostleship and do not have the credentials of Christ's 12. Therefore, they are not true apostles.
It is a strange thing to me that if the mormons had apostles they would do and say what the 12 of Christ's day spoke and practiced. However, they do not. Why is this? Is it a different spirit? II Thes. 2:15, II Tim. 1:13, Phil. 3:16, ICor. 11:1.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
Sorry your mind is closed to any reasoning...

How do you know? You haven't tried to reason with me.

I've tried asking you questions precisely because I do want to reason with you but you refuse to answer, instead trying to give me a sales pitch.

Frank and others have also tried to reason with you and you have refused.

I think it's clear from your refusal to answer Frank and me that you're the one whose mind is closed to reasoning.

..and the history books I spoke of were not by LDS authors...

Actually what you said was

...take a trip to Can Cun, Mexico and read of the early civilizations in our history books

which I took to mean LDS history books.

or disprove it by your own personal research..it won't happen and that is o.k.

Actually, it already has been disproved many, many times.

The problem is that you won't listen to anything anyone says to you. You're more interested defending in a religious ideology that makes you comfortable than you are in the truth, or, in this case, the Truth.

Lookbeyond, you're the one making the outrageous claim that the BOM is inspired by God so under the generally accepted rules of legal debate, we should be the ones demanding that you prove the BOM is true.

...when we meet in heaven, and I am sure we will, I will surely reach out to you with my covictions and desire to share with you things I know to be true...

Why wait until Heaven? Why not start now by answering my questions?

...truth never changes and will always be no matter how you perceive it.

Unless, of course, you're Joseph Smith.

You have not given any specifics of Joseph Smith's unfulfilled prophecies...

For starters:

1. That the American Civil War would be "poured out upon all nations. - (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3)

2. That the wicked men of his generation would be swept from off the face of the land". - (Documentary History of the Church 1:315)

3. That Jesus would return in 1891. - (Documentary History of the Church 2:182)

4. That a temple would be built in Independence, Mo. by those of the generation still living in 1832 - (Doctrine and Covenants 84:4-5)

Lookbeyond, don't you find just a little odd that you proclaim Joseph Smith to be such a great and true prophet of God, yet you aren't even aware of any of his prophecies?

Do you believe in living apostles

No. The Bible doesn't support such a position.

and revelation from God today?

Only insofar as is revealed in the Bible.

[ September 05, 2002, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[lookbeyond]

The first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice! My faith is stong and my convictions of the truths that He has revealed in this the Last Dispensation of time, before the Second Coming of the Savior have come to me through the witness of the Holy Ghost.
I do not and will not contend the issues that have been raised....they are non-issues to me and given to research and the context in which each were given, the truth is made known, but truth will remain ever to be truth, and this truth I know with out a doubt, God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph Smith and through him restored the Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth. Peter, James and John returned to the earth and bestowed the Melchizedek Priesthood upon him as directed by the Savior. John the Baptist returned likewise, and restored the Aaronic Priesthood by bestowal upon the Prophet Joseph Smith. This truth can be disputed, but it will remain ever to be so! As the sheep know the shepherds's voice, those who are the Master's will know His voice and seek understanding and testimony of this truth I share with you today. "By their fruits ye shall know them." A living tree brings forth fruit....a dead tree and it's branches can never bring forth fruit! God reveals himself to His children; His Son, Jesus Christ has done so likewise, and reveals to HIs Church,The Church of Jesus Christ today, the needed truths to sustain the message of the restoration and the preparations necessary for the Second Coming of the Savior to the earth, in all His Glory, to claim His Kingdom on earth, and rule and reign for a thousand years in peace! The message we share with the world comes from God, through His Son Jesus Christ to living Prophets on the earth today! Are we any less of a people, that God cannot speak to His children today, just as He did in Biblical days? Who are we to say He can't? We know He can and He does! But even today, in a so called "enlightened" world, there are far too many who lack the faith to believe this to be possible, but the heavens are not sealed, regardless of what the, so called, christian world believes. We are outside the world of modern day christians, and therefore aren't included as "Christian" because of our testimony to the world, that God AND Jesus Christ, two separate personages, of flesh and bone, appeared to the boy Jospeh! I often wonder if the "competition" for followers in all the so called christian churches is at the base of this unbelief in God and Jesus Christ! Followers translate into money for the clergy! In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no paid clergy! And the Church grows today because of the faithful tithe payers.....1/10 of their income contributed to the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth......not to support the clergy! Our missionaries serve throughout the world at their own expense! 60,000+ Why? It is the message we have to share and our convictions of it's truthfulness, our faith having been rewarded with a witness from the Holy Ghost!

 

[Eladar]

The first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice!

Although many "Just Jesus" people would say this is true, I don't believe it is.

The first principle of the gospel is to love God with your whole heart, the second is love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Chemnitz]

Do you believe in living apostles and revelation from God today?

The only new apostles and revelations are those of unclean spirits. The apocalypse of St John is the last revelation God gave to man.

Whether or not clergy are paid does not affect proclamation of the Gospel. To be quite frank if a man becomes a pastor to make big bucks then he better get his head checked because it isn't exactly a money making profession. Those that are making big bucks should examine their priorities. We don't play the numbers game to make money. In fact we don't even play the numbers game, because if we are just trying to get people in the church we are in it for the wrong reason. The sole purpose of the church is to proclaim the Gospel, so that through the proclaimation some may be redeemed.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by lookbeyond:
The first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice!

OK. I can buy that, but do when you say "Jesus", are you talking about the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of Mormonism.

My faith is stong and my convictions of the truths that He has revealed in this the Last Dispensation of time, before the Second Coming of the Savior have come to me through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

I disagree. If your faith was strong, you wouldn't keep ducking what should be very easy questions and you wouldn't run away from Joseph Smith's false prophecies.

You asked me to tell you what they are so I think it's only fair that, since I did (even though you've still refused to answer my questions and Frank's questions), you respond.

I do not and will not contend the issues that have been raised....they are non-issues to me

They are huge issues, lookbeyond, because they're what seperates Mormonism from Christianity.

and given to research and the context in which each were given,

Actually, "the context in which each were given" is that most were given in response to your own direct statements.

Peter, James and John returned to the earth and bestowed the Melchizedek Priesthood upon him as directed by the Savior.

How could they when they didn't possess the Melchizedek priesthood to begin with? (Sorry! A question - we know how much you hate those.)

John the Baptist returned likewise, and restored the Aaronic Priesthood by bestowal upon the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Did John the Baptist possess the Aaronic priesthood?

Would you please show me where in the BoM these things about the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods are taught?

This truth can be disputed, but it will remain ever to be so!

That doesn't make sense. If "it will remain forever so", how can it be disputed?

God reveals himself to His children; His Son, Jesus Christ has done so likewise, and reveals to HIs Church,The Church of Jesus Christ today,

For the umpteenth time, if this truth of yours is really revealed to you by God, why does so much of Mormonism contradict the Bible?

Does God not read His own book? Can He not make up His own mind?

The message we share with the world comes from God, through His Son Jesus Christ to living Prophets on the earth today! Are we any less of a people, that God cannot speak to His children today,

However God may speak, He will not contradict His word.

We are outside the world of modern day christians, and therefore aren't included as "Christian" because of our testimony to the world, that God AND Jesus Christ, two separate personages, of flesh and bone, appeared to the boy Jospeh!

By "God", I assume you mean the Father. Sense when does the Bible support the idea that God the Father has ever appeared in flesh form? Especially when the Bible says that God is spirit?

Even more so, are you saying that the BoM is in error when it says in Alma 18:24-28 that God is spirit?

It's interesting to note that even though the BoM says in Alma 18:24-28 that God is spirit, Doctrine and Covenants, sec. 130:22 says that God has a body of flesh and bone.

One of them is wrong. May I ask which one?

Followers translate into money for the clergy!

Not necessarily true. Churches generally don't pay based on the size of the congregation (I can't say that none do, but I've never heard of one) but an arbitrary sum based on the ability the congregation to pay.

This is Biblical and one of the reasons my particular denomination requires our pastors to be bivocational.

In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no paid clergy!

Actually, that's not entirely true.

The GA in SLC is paid. Many LDS people on down the line have sponsors who kick in a couple of bucks to them, including missionaries.

Besides, most of our church planters and missionaries raise their own support, too. So what?

Just for the heck of it, let's say that what you say about LDS leadership is true and LDS leaders and missionaries don't recive funding.

How do you feel about the fact that, by not paying it's leadership and missionaries, your church is ignoring Doctrine and Covenants 42:71-73, which says that they should be paid?

And the Church grows today because of the faithful tithe payers.....1/10 of their income contributed to the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth...

Can you please show me where in the Bible it says that God's church grows based on how much money it raises?

Our missionaries serve throughout the world at their own expense!

Again, so do ours. So do Moonies. So do Jehovah's witnesses. So do B'hai. So What?

It is the message we have to share and our convictions of it's truthfulness, our faith having been rewarded with a witness from the Holy Ghost!

Forgive me for repeating myself, but I don't think this can be stressed enough: if your revelation is really from God, why does it contradict previous revelations?

Look, Lookbeyond, I'm not trying to badger you with these things by hammering the same points home over and over, but you're the one who brought them up.

I don't think it's very fair of you to bring these things up on a Christian bulletin board and then get mad when people respond.

I also don't think it's fair to accuse me of not being open to reason when I've tried to engage you at every oportunity.

What you're talking about isn't reason. You're basing what you're telling us on subjective experiences and feelings.

When we bring up a point of Mormon doctrine, you don't say, "what you say isn't true because the Bom, D&C, DHC, or any of the other writings that determine Mormon doctrine say so".

Any time we bring something up and cite your own resources to back it up, you don't answer, you just stamp your feet and launch into the "I know my testimony is true because I have a burning in the bosom" speech.

That's not reason.

If you don't know, it's no sin to say, "I don't know" and no one here would think any less of you for saying it. God knows we've all had to do it.

If you do know and you believe that LDS teaching is true and we're all apostate, I would think that the loving thing to do would be to show us the truth. Not just tell us how much you believe it, we know that already, but show us where we went wrong.

Paul did it. Jesus did it. We're commanded to do it.

Someone who's interested in reason wouldn't just go into a Christian bulletin board and push what it's inhabitants believe to be non-Christian doctrine and then be upset when you're confronted.

Look, if you can't answer what should be very easy questions, most of which can be answered with "yes", "no" or "I don't know", then please invite your Mormon friends to join us.

Maybe they will be a little more versed in the history and doctrines of their own faith.

Maybe both you and we will learn something.

Mike

[ September 05, 2002, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Fatherof4]

Hello all:

Before I just jump in here as a revenant(and please forgive me for just barging in to the middle like this), I need to make a quick disclaimer. The last time I made an attempt to post on this board, I quickly found myself spending hours answering a number of different replies. I simply cannot afford to do that, but I would like a shot at something on a more limited basis. From the last post:

Smoke_Eater:
OK. I can buy that, but do when you say "Jesus", are you talking about the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of Mormonism.

Don Responds:
Our doctrine differs, but there is only one Jesus. He is the great Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, the promissed Messiah, the Redeemer of the World, and the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Smoke_Eater:
I disagree. If your faith was strong, you wouldn't keep ducking what should be very easy questions and you wouldn't run away from Joseph Smith's false prophecies.

Don Responds:
Please give me one specific example of a so-called false prophecy of Joseph Smith. Forgive me if you have previously discussed this. Also please inform me if we are applying similar standards for Joseph and Biblical prophets. Do we have a fallacy of double standard here?

Smoke_Eater:
How could they when they didn't possess the Melchizedek priesthood to begin with?

Don responds:
What evidence do you have that they did not possess the Melchizidek Priesthood? Non sequitur.

Smoke_Eater:
(Sorry! A question - we know how much you hate those.)

Don responds:
Ad hominem.

Smoke_Eater:
Did John the Baptist possess the Aaronic priesthood?

Would you please show me where in the BoM these things about the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods are taught?

Don responds:
Irrelevant conclusion. LDS are not bound to the post second and third century, non-Biblical theories of Closed Cannon and innerancy.

Doctrine of the Melchizidek Priesthood is found in a number of places in the Book of Mormon. The Aaronic was not held by the Lehites, since they were not of the designated lineage. Here are a couple of examples.

Alma 4:20
And thus in the commencement of the ninth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, Alma delivered up the judgment-seat to Nephihah, and confined himself wholly to the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to the testimony of the word, according to the spirit of revelation and prophecy.

In LDS theology, the high priesthood and the holy priesthood are interchangeable with the Melchizidek Priesthood.

Also see Alma 13 (entire chapter)for a fairly good overview of the priesthood.

Smoke_Eater:
For the umpteenth time, if this truth of yours is really revealed to you by God, why does so much of Mormonism contradict the Bible?

Does God not read His own book? Can He not make up His own mind?

Don responds:
Fallacy.

Smoke_Eater:
By "God", I assume you mean the Father. Sense when does the Bible support the idea that God the Father has ever appeared in flesh form? Especially when the Bible says that God is spirit?

Don responds:
I'm a little confused here. Do you not support the Hellenistic Trinity theory? Is not the Father and the Son of "one substance"?

Smoke_Eater:
Even more so, are you saying that the BoM is in error when it says in Alma 18:24-28 that God is spirit?

Don responds:
Since LDS beleive that the preexistent Christ was a personage of Spirit, this is completely in harmony with our theology.

Smoke_Eater:
It's interesting to note that even though the BoM says in Alma 18:24-28 that God is spirit, Doctrine and Covenants, sec. 130:22 says that God has a body of flesh and bone.

One of them is wrong. May I ask which one?

Don:
Oh good grief! See previous answer. Fallacy of composition. Alma was written before Jesus came in the flesh. The D&C was given afterward.

Smoke_Eater:
Actually, that's not entirely true.

Don:
Smoke_Eater, you are fairly correct here. Some authorities do receive a minimal stipend, and some missionaries do have a portion of their missions paid for them, if they cannot afford it. There is still a vast difference between most Evangelical and LDS ministries in how they are paid. I have never been paid a cent for my service, including the time on my mission.

Smoke_Eater:
Can you please show me where in the Bible it says that God's church grows based on how much money it raises?

Don responds:
First, the LDS are not inerrantists. Second, I don't agree with your statement.

Smoke_Eater:
Forgive me for repeating myself, but I don't think this can be stressed enough: if your revelation is really from God, why does it contradict previous revelations?

Don:
This would be an assumption on your part. Our doctrine does not change. On a related note, I have studied many hours of Evangelical AND LDS theologies. I personally believe that the LDS faith is historically more in alignment with Chritianity than any other system of belief. You will probably disagree.

Have you ever considered what Origen, Tertullian and others believed in regard to doctrines such as the preexistence, the divine nature of man, the nature of God and the Godhead, among other topics. If the LDS are off base in regard to these things, so then were many of the early Christians.

[ September 08, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Don Layton ]

 

[Fatherof4]

Frank writes:

The promise of miraculous knowledge ended with the completion of the all sufficient New Testament. I Cor. 13: 8-13. This was need to help the church to mature. Eph. 4:11-16. This revelation was for the 12 who were qualified to deliver the revelation. SEE previous post. The 12 were the ones promised reveltion of ALL the truth. John 16:13.

Don:
Non-Sequitur. The conclusion does not follow.

Frank:
Again, mormon apostles prophets fail the divine test of apostleship and do not have the credentials of Christ's 12. Therefore, they are not true apostles.

Don:
Fallacious fallacy. Repetition of fallacious fallacy. Straw man.

Frank:
It is a strange thing to me that if the mormons had apostles they would do and say what the 12 of Christ's day spoke and practiced.

Don:
Straw man. Fallacious fallacy. Come on guys! This accusation without representation is getting old, even in the short time that I have been here.

Frank:
However, they do not.

Don:
Do too!(grin)

Frank:
Why is this? Is it a different spirit? II Thes. 2:15, II Tim. 1:13, Phil. 3:16, ICor. 11:1.

Don:
No, same spirit. The early Christians were also accused of the "another gospel" idea by Jews of the day. Jesus was accused of having a devil. The Jews didn't like the fact that the Christians had added additional scripture. They believed that the cannon had been closed. Man this is starting to sound familiar. Early Christian apologists even had to defend their beliefs regarding the deification of man.

 

[Fatherof4]

To help make my point, I quote from: http://www.restorationhistory.com/rh/early-anti-Christian.html

"In his polemical work against modern Christianity, the late 19th century anti-Christian writer, T. W. Doane uses the same logic which Celsus had used earlier. For after pointing out a number of parallels between Christianity & the pagan nations, he suggests that:

"Our assertion that that which is called Christianity is nothing more than the religion of Paganism, we consider to have been fully verified. We have found among the heathen, centuries before the time of Christ Jesus, the belief in an incarnate God born of a virgin; his previous existence in heaven" [and other similarities]. (Doane, Bible Myth, p.384).

Doane knew of John P. Lundy's book & yet decided to not accept Lundy's answer as to why there could be parallels, for Lundy wrote that:

"Infidelity has been accustomed to say, from the time of Dupuis to the present, that Christianity is only a sort of copy of ancient Paganism: that is has no new ideas, and must therefore be rejected. But where did Paganism get its sublime conceptions of God, its notions of immortality and human destiny? Whence did all ancient nations derive them, hold them, and agree so marvellously about them? This universal faith must have an adequate cause; and Christianity is but the more full, clear, true and glorious exponent of it all.... If Christ was before Abraham, as He claimed to be, then surely He must have manifested Himself to other nations beside the Jews, or other nations, including the Jews, must have derived their religious systems and ideas from some common source." (Lundy, Monumental Christianity, p. 98). "

Isn't that pretty much what God told Joseph Smith?

Don