Born again but not justified?

What makes you think Romans 4 disagrees with me? It says exactly what I have said ... It quotes Gen 15:6 and relates it to the promise of a seed. Where is that promise of a seed? Gen 12 ... Right where I said. He believed that promised ... He didn't wait until Gen 15. This is not about Calvinism. This is about reading the text of Scripture rather than making up your own positions.

 

Paul did not claim that. Read it closely. Paul quotes 15:6 as evidence his justification. He does not say when that justification took place. Taht is clear from a plain reading of the text. The passage references the Abrahamic covenant which starts at Gen 12.

The Bible answers your questions. You just need to handle it carefully.

 

From a reading of Genesis 15, it sure does appear that 15:6 relates specifically to the first five verses, especially looking at the structure of the paragraph. It takes the form of a narrative, and there is absolutely no indication that verse six is out of context, really, before verse 7 continues the narrative.

 

I have to agree with PL that these passages are not about Calvinism.

[However, I am not certain that Abraham was "saved" when he left Ur.]

Romans 4 does not have the context of faith -it has the context of faith versus circumsision.

Verse Heb 11:13 clearly points out that their work(s) of faith continued until they died. And that life is the righteousness.

In light of that I would read that the Genesis passage(s) are actions that were righteous (points of time in his life). To read into an Old Testament life a salvation type event is very difficult for me.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2011:13-19;&version=31;

 

That is not what I said at all and you know it. Paul is describing how Abraham was justified. It was by faith, the same as everyone else.

This will not go much farther. Quite frankly, I am tired of repeating stuff over and over again. If you were willing to learn, then I would feel differently, but you do not appear in the least willing to interact with what Scripture actually says.

Scott, this is where knowing Hebrew helps. The syntax of v. 6 indicates that it is not a part of the narrative but rather an interjection. YOu can look it up both in Ross and Sailhammer who will discuss the grammar behind it. It gets hidden in English which is why we need to emphasize theological education.

To try to make it simple, the waw prefix is not a consecutive (wayya'amin). A waw consecutive is sometimes called a preterite, and is the narrative continuation. Here, it is something different, that indicates an interjection or a parenthetical statement. It is wehe'emin which is a perfect tense Hiphil. Suffice it to say that those who know Hebrew understand that this is a break in the narrative, a kind of parenthetical statement.

 

Again, all you need to do is read and think carefully. Paul was quoting Gen 15:6 as evidence of Abraham's justification by faith. He was not saying that it happened between Gen 15:5 and 7. That would contradict Paul's whole teaching on justification.

Why do you keep repeating the same stuff?

You took my words, completely twisted them, and tried to pretend like I said something I didn't. That is unacceptable.

 

Because Paul teaches people are justified by faith, at the moment of faith (Rom 5:1). Hebrews tells us that Abraham had faith when he left Ur (Gen 12:1). Therefore, by Paul's teaching on justification, Abraham had to be justified at Gen 12:1, not at Gen 15:6.

 

For what it's worth, Matthew Henry's commentary makes the point that 15:6 is where Abraham was justified. Wesley also agrees, as well as three other commentaries that I looked through.

I found some quotes from both Sailhammer and Ross, but also from Gordon J. Wenha, who wrote, “It is unusual for single events in past time to use [perfect] + waw." He identifies it as an “editorial comment,” and notes that the form of aman (believe) used here (waw + hiphil qatal/perfect) “… probably indicates repeated or continuing action. Faith was Abraham’s normal response…”

http://www.quodlibet.net/lee-covenant.shtml#_edn20

So, in other words, I have come to agree with you. Unfortunately, I didn't get that far in my Hebrew studies as I really didn't appreciate my professor.

I would recommend the article, as it is quite interesting.