"born again" revisited

It is widely rejected by our Reform brethren but Christ is going to bring in 2 folds, John 10:16. What this means is that before Christ, there was another gospel ("gospel of the kingdom" looking forward to Christ) and now is another "gospel of grace" (looking back to what Christ had done). There was an "old covenant" and now there is a "new covenant." There were an earthly people but we are an heavenly people (meaning that we will inherit New Jerusalem to live in) and the OT saints, in the ages to come, will inherit the "New Earth" for their home.

Under this view, God's dealing with the Jews was interrupted "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, then shall all Israel be saved." Rom 11:25. Accordingly, the church being raptured bodily to heaven/NJ will end the "interruption" and God will begin to deal again with Israel --- which is evidentally soon because Israel has already reemerged as a nation. Part of that is that postrib, Christ will resurrect the "just" OT saints, infants, mentally infirm to earth.

Right now their souls are in heaven, yes. But here's an interesting insight into this "2 folds" thing. Remember when Paul said he went to the 3rd heaven, 2Cor 12? Well, in Heb 12:22-24 we have his account as if he had been raptured in 2Cor 12. In Heb 12, he tells us of the 2 groups: 1) the church of the firstborn ("firstborn" is critical because we were first "born again!") BODILY and 2) "the spirits of JUST men made perfect." And what do we know about "just men?" They are resurrected postrib to earth -- and these seen in heaven are only their SPIRITS. Yes, Jesus took their spirits to heaven -- and here they are seen of Paul!

I conclude from reading John in the Revelation that he sees those spirits as "angels." Notice Rev 19:10 where the angel tells John not to worship him because he is of John's brethren that have the testimony of Jesus. 1) Angels aren't our brethren. 2) They aren't our "fellowservants." See the similar thing in Rev 22:9 though this one seems to be and OT Jewish saint vs. a trib Christian saint in 19:10 judging by their testimonies.

So God has a "program" for Israel from Adam to Christ and from the rapture till the end of the MK. He also has a program for the church in the "interruption" from whence we will be raptured to NJ till the end of the MK (no doubt communing via angels with Christ, John 1:51). Then comes the thing we pray for when we pray "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." It is the coming of GOD'S kingdom (not Christ's MK) to the NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH, Rev 21:1!!

There's much more to expound upon here but since you are on line, maybe I can await your next question.

skypair

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by reformbaptist
They were not born again by any exercise of the will of man, physically or mentally, or because of linage. God caused the new birth.

This quote is attributed to reformbaptist........ was it meant for me? It seems it is my quote. If so.......... why yes......... God can and does save babies who die in infancy. I personally believe He saves them all, sovereignly.

 

I'm sorry. I realized I had addressed the wrong person after I could edit my post.

OK, that's a wonderful, biblical opinion. Now how is it derived? How does an infant born in "original sin" get saved? And "sovereignly" hardly begins to describe the theology of it. If God justifies believers legally, how does He aquit them legally? Where does He maybe say, "I forgive all infants."

skypair

 

Skypair,
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I have always taken this to be God bringing the gospel to the gentiles. The one fold being "The Church" (Body of Christ) of which Christ is the head.

The book of Revelations is an interesting book. However, in my studies, I do not try to interpret a lot from it. The reason is because a lot of it is "Imagry" and I have heard so many different things. After all, if we could go back 2000 years ago and write a paper explaining what the "Internet" is and what a "Nuclear Bomb" is, it would be hard to put into words.
My feelings on the end time is that it has all been fulfilled. This means Christ could come back at any time and when He does, we all go home and those that died in their sins and the non believers that were alive when He came, will all be judged.
I get this because in the book of Matthew (24), the dicsiples came to Him and asked Him 3 questions. They were: 1. When shall these things be (The temple be destroyed), 2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, 3. And of the end of the world. Jesus answers all three questions in chapters 24 & 25. He spoke to plain men in plain words. Much easier for me to follow. Also, in Revelations, Christ said He was Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. I feel what John actually had seen was from the beginning to the end. Alot of the things he wrote about had already happened.

I realize I am in the minority on this issue, but I hold the position that there will not be a literal 1,000 year reign, tribulation, etc... My thoughts are, it has already happened. When Christ comes back, its over. The dead in Christ will be raised and given their new body. Those that are alive and God has saved will be changed and we all will meet Him in the air and go to Heaven and be with Him forever.

 

There is no where in scripture where the eternal destiny of babies is addressed other than "as such is the kingdom of God". I said that I want to believe that all babies are saved by God's sovereign grace... the same way I believe the elect are saved. Does the bible say all babies are saved? NO
What do you say? Are all babies saved? Where is your biblical justification for your belief?

 

Babies

Hebrews 5
1Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.
4No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father." 6And he says in another place,
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Warning Against Falling Away
11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

1 Corinthians 1:
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

Philippians 4: 4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


by Vedran Vuk
Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference...

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' "

What ever happens to children before the decision can be place is up to God, one thing we do know is that God is just.

Revelation 15
Seven Angels with Seven Plagues
1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed. 2And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God 3and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:
"Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the ages.
4Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed."

 

Originally Posted by John 1:12,13
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

This says that that to all that received him i.e. accepted Christ through their own free will. Isn't thast clear that someone is born again if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior> What's the confusion?

 

Baptist Believer,
The confusion is this, by the conclusion you have mentioned, then all children that die go to hell. Unless they used their own free will, repented of their sins and was born again.

When I was a young boy, I can remember walking down the hall at school and two boys got into a fight. All of the sudden, one boy swung at the other and missed him but got me. I received that punch in the nose. I didn't ask for it and I didn't accept it, but I still received it.

We sometimes define things in harmony with our own interpretaion. We must never forget that God is completely sovereign. We shouldn't pick and choose when He is sovereign or in what cases He is to be sovereign in. He is the Supreme Ruler and He does it the way He wants according to His pleasure.
Also, We have our responsibilities. We are to desire Christ, repent and follow Him. The Bible is clear that no man seeks God on his own. But Christ promissed to draw all to Him. So, until He does, we can't. That means we don't have ultimate free will.

You are very correct about when we are born again. As verse 13 clearly explains:
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

 

As do many. Whereas it is obvious Jesus is speaking of "not of this fold" sheep that He has to bring in besides the sheep "fold" He is speaking to. So while the other fold is the Gentiles, when He brings in the Gentiles, the Jewish OT sheep get out (is how I see it) or go unminded.

This is merely denial of the covenants with Abraham and with David. Israel has never possessed the land they were promised and David's seed has never ruled the world.

As I was thinking the other day, God has expressed the desire a few times to have a "do over." He actually "did over" with Noah and almost did with Moses. Now He soon will "do over" with Israel in obedience, but like all "do overs," they are done specifically with who you wanted to do it over with.

Then as I look at the Revelation, I see the new temple -- the 144,000 JEWS with the mark of God -- Moses and Elijah -- the effort to wipe out the "woman"/Israel -- taberbacle in heaven, the counterpart to what is going on in earth -- etc. Summarily, these are things going on throughout The Revelation bringing the Jews back to a state in which God can put them above all nations.

[quorw]I get this because in the book of Matthew (24), the dicsiples came to Him and asked Him 3 questions. They were: 1. When shall these things be (The temple be destroyed), 2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, 3. And of the end of the world. Jesus answers all three questions in chapters 24 & 25. He spoke to plain men in plain words. Much easier for me to follow.[/quote] Or easier to "assign" as past since the "signs" are so general, right? What do you think the "fig tree" represents? When did that happen in the past?

Also, in Revelations, Christ said He was Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. I feel what John actually had seen was from the beginning to the end. Alot of the things he wrote about had already happened.

skypair

 

...IF they were guilty. They are not, however.

 

Yes. Rom 7:9 -- "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

This matches up with Ezek 18:20 as Paul being "alive"/"just" prior to committing his own sin -- "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." To me, you can't "slice it and dice it" any clearer that that! Guiltless people are not condemned.

David said of his dead infant "He cannot come to me, but I will go to him." Where? In hell? Was David going to die and go to hell? No.

The church made up a neat little "gospel of infant baptism" to save infants a long time ago to "save" innocent babies. Worked so well they thought up 6 more sacraments that had "salvation" attached to them and convinced "Christians" that it was at least more likely that they would get into heaven this way.

Now, of course, many reject infant baptism but not the doctrine for which it was the designed. These people have only thought out 2 options: a) save 'em with another gospel that is not found in scripture but in the "will of man" or b) admit that they all go to hell. I'm just telling you that God can "pass them on" and have them receive Christ later.

skypair

 

Don't have time this moring, but I'll leave you with this. Guiltless people are only those who have been justified by God, through the righteousness of Christ. To fall short of the glory (perfection) of God is sin. Even babies are not perfect, or they would not die. One word sky........... hermeneutics.

 

Thanks, rb. Life is really busy on Sunday, isn't it?

That's an "opinion." If it were true, Adam would have had to be justified by God through Christ before he had even sinned. I got 3 questions fort you then:

1) Did God "shed innocent blood" for Adam -- give he and Eve animal skins for covering -- BEFORE they sinned?

2) Is the soul of each person a creation of God or of man?

3) And does God "create" evil? And what aspect of man (soul, spirit, or body) has to be "justified"/"rejuvenated" by God?

While you are taking time later today, dig a little deeper.

skypair